Los ntawm Democracy Now, Plaub Hlis 4, 2023
Finland tab tom koom nrog NATO Hnub Tuesday nyob rau hauv ib qho kev txav uas ua rau ob tog tub rog sib koom ua ke ciam teb nrog Russia. Finland thiab Russia muaj 800-mais ciam teb. Finland koom nrog NATO ib lub lim tiam tom qab Qaib Cov Txwv lub parliament tau pov ntawv pom zoo rau Nordic lub teb chaws cov tswv cuab. Qaib ntxhw thiab Hungary tseem tsis tau pom zoo rau Sweden ua tus tswv cuab ntawm NATO, nrog Thawj Tswj Hwm Turkish Recep Tayyip Erdoğan liam Stockholm ntawm harboring Kurdish dissidents nws suav hais tias yog cov neeg phem. Finland thiab Sweden tau thov tuaj koom NATO Nyob rau lub Tsib Hlis 2022, tsuas yog lub hlis tom qab Russia tawm tsam Ukraine. Yog xav paub ntxiv txog NATO txoj kev nthuav dav, peb tuav kev sib tham ntawm Reiner Braun, yav dhau los tus thawj coj ntawm International Peace Bureau thiab tus neeg ua haujlwm ntev German kev thaj yeeb nyab xeeb, thiab Atte Erik Harjanne, tus tswv cuab ntawm Finnish Parliament rau Green League.
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AMY GOODMAN: Qhov no yog Kev ywj pheej tam sim no!, Democracynow.org, Kev Tsov Rog thiab Kev Tshaj Tawm Qhia. Kuv yog Amy Goodman, nrog Juan González.
Finland tab tom koom nrog NATO niaj hnub no nyob rau hauv ib qho kev txav uas ob npaug rau NATO tus ciam teb nrog Russia. Finland thiab Russia muaj 800-mais ciam teb. Finland tab tom koom nrog cov tub rog sib koom ua ke ib lub lim tiam tom qab Qaib Cov Txwv lub parliament tau pov ntawv pom zoo rau nws cov tswv cuab.
Qaib ntxhw thiab Hungary tseem tsis tau pom zoo rau Sweden ua tus tswv cuab ntawm NATO. Tus thawj tswj hwm Turkish, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, tau tsis lees paub Sweden txoj kev nkag mus rau NATO Tom qab liam nws ntawm harboring Kurdish dissidents nws txiav txim siab cov neeg phem thiab xav extradited.
Finland thiab Sweden tau thov ua ke los koom NATO. Lawv tau ua nyob rau lub Tsib Hlis 2022, txog peb lub hlis tom qab Russia tau tawm tsam Ukraine.
Qhov no yog NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg hais lus hnub no.
JENS STOLTENBERG: Hnub no yog hnub keeb kwm, vim tias ob peb teev peb yuav txais tos Finland ua tus tswv cuab thib 31 ntawm peb lub koom haum. Qhov no yuav ua rau Finland muaj kev nyab xeeb thiab NATO muaj zog dua. … Los ntawm kev ua ib tug tswv cuab, Finland yuav tau txais ib daim ntawv pov thawj kev ruaj ntseg. Tshooj 5, peb cov lus sib sau ua ke tiv thaiv - ib qho rau txhua tus, tag nrho rau ib qho - yuav tam sim no, txij hnub no, thov rau Finland.
AMY GOODMAN: Lub Kremlin tau txiav txim siab koom nrog Finland NATO as a, quote, "ua phem rau peb kev ruaj ntseg," unquote. Hnub Monday, cov tub ceev xwm Lavxias tshaj tawm tias lawv yuav txhawb nqa nws cov tub rog nyob rau sab qaum teb sab hnub poob Russia.
Peb koom nrog ob tug qhua. Reiner Braun yog yav dhau los tus thawj coj ntawm International Peace Bureau, tus German kev thaj yeeb nyab xeeb, keeb kwm thiab tus sau, uas tau tawm tsam tawm tsam Asmeskas huab cua hauv Ramstein thiab tawm tsam. NATO. Nws tau koom nrog peb los ntawm Berlin. Thiab hauv Helsinki, Finland, peb koom nrog Atte Harjanne. Nws yog ib tug nom tswv Finnish tam sim no ua haujlwm hauv Parliament ntawm Finland rau Green League ntawm Helsinki cov pov npav.
Cia peb pib nrog Atte Harjanne. Koj nrog Green Party hauv Finland. Nws siv los tawm tsam kev koom nrog NATO tab sis hloov xyoo tas los. Koj puas tuaj yeem tham txog vim li cas koj xav tias hnub no tseem ceeb heev?
atte HARJANNE: Hnub no yog qhov tseem ceeb, raws li peb tau hnov Mr. Stoltenberg tham nyob rau ntawd, hais tias nws yog ib hnub keeb kwm thaum Finland koom nrog kev sib koom ua ke. Thiab kuv xav tias peb pom tias nws tsim nyog nyob rau lub sijhawm, tab sis kuj tsis yog tsuas yog lav thiab pab txhawb peb txoj kev ruaj ntseg, tab sis kuj tseem pab txhawb ntxiv rau kev ruaj ntseg ntawm tag nrho cov teb chaws Europe.
Yog, thiab Green Party, peb tau dhau los ua qhov tsis zoo rau kev ua tswv cuab. Tau kawg, txhua yam hloov pauv thaum Lub Ob Hlis 2020. Thiab tau muaj ib yam zoo li cov suab nrov ntawm NATO rau xyoo twb - kuv suav nrog, piv txwv li. Tab sis, yog, txhua yam zoo nkauj hloov pauv nrog kev tawm tsam Lavxias hauv Ukraine.
JOHN GONZÁLEZ: Thiab dab tsi yog koj cov lus teb rau txoj hauj lwm Lavxias teb sab uas txuas ntxiv nthuav dav ntawm NATO ntxiv rau sab hnub tuaj yog qhov ua rau muaj kev hem thawj rau Russia txoj kev ruaj ntseg?
atte HARJANNE: Zoo, kuv xav tias nws yog ib qho kev hais lus tsis txaus ntseeg thiab cov lus piav qhia ntawm Kremlin, uas nws zoo li qee yam ntawm lub fortress. Qhov tseeb yog qhov ntawd NATO yog ib qho kev tiv thaiv nkaus xwb rau Europe. Thiab, ntawm chav kawm, lub accession rau NATO yog nyob ntawm txhua lub teb chaws txoj kev yeem xaiv ua li ntawd. Yog li, nws yog qhov tseeb, kuv xav tias, paranoid Kremlin piav qhia, uas yog - cov neeg tuaj saib tseem ceeb yog cov neeg tuaj saib hauv tsev nyob ntawd.
JOHN GONZÁLEZ: Thaum koj hais tias "kev tiv thaiv dawb huv," Kuv xav tias cov neeg nyob hauv Serbia lossis hauv Libya yuav nug seb puas yog? NATO yog ib lub koom haum tiv thaiv nkaus xwb.
atte HARJANNE: Yog lawm, qhov ntawd yog qhov tseeb. Tau kawg, NATO tau muaj lub luag haujlwm tseem ceeb hauv qhov no, zoo li - cov haujlwm no. Tab sis saib los ntawm qhov kev xav ntawm Finland koom nrog kev sib koom ua ke, qhov no tau pom tias yog kev tiv thaiv tag nrho txhawm rau txhawm rau txhawb kev ruaj ntseg European tag nrho. NATOYog li ntawd, tsis muaj kev hem thawj rau Russia ua tub rog, tsuas yog hais txog kev tiv thaiv kev tiv thaiv, thiab yog li muaj qee qhov kev txwv thiab txwv rau kev ua phem rau Lavxias thiab lub tswv yim ntawm kev tsim lub cheeb tsam ntawm kev cuam tshuam nrog kev nruj kev tsiv lossis txawm tias muaj kev kub ntxhov.
AMY GOODMAN: Reiner Braun, yog tias koj tuaj yeem teb los ntawm Berlin rau qhov tshwm sim niaj hnub no, Finland koom nrog NATO? Koj teb?
REINER Xim av: Koj paub, nws tsis yog ib hnub keeb kwm. Hnub no yog qhov kawg ntawm zaj dab neeg ntev dua. Finland yog, tag nrho cov xyoo dhau los, ib feem ntawm NATO hais kom ua thiab tswj system, ib feem ntawm ntau NATO kev tawm dag zog, suav nrog NATO Cov tub rog hauv Finland, thiab nthuav lawv cov peev nyiaj tub rog mus rau ntau dua 2% nyiam NATO. Yog li, nws yog qhov kawg ntawm kev ua tub rog ntawm Finland thiab tag nrho cheeb tsam. Thiab hnub no tsis yog keeb kwm. Nws yog qhov kev tawg ntawm keeb kwm ntawm Finland, uas yog ib lub teb chaws nruab nrab, los ntawm kuv txoj kev nkag siab, nrog ntau yam kev ua tiav hauv kev ua kom muaj kev thaj yeeb nyab xeeb, muaj cov xwm txheej loj thoob ntiaj teb kev sib haum xeeb, zoo li Helsinki Conference ntawm 1975. Lub sij hawm no dhau lawm.
Thiab rau dab tsi? Vim muaj ntau cov tub rog Lavxias nyob ze rau ciam teb? Puas muaj tej zaum txawm muaj riam phom nuclear ntawm ob tog? Tam sim no lawv tab tom hais tias tsuas yog ntawm Lavxias teb sab yog riam phom nuclear tshiab, tab sis cia peb tos ob lossis peb xyoos. Thiab qhov no ua rau - nws yog, ib zaug ntxiv, ib kauj ruam rau kev nce ntxiv hauv Tebchaws Europe, thiab tsis yog kauj ruam kev thaj yeeb. Thiab hais ncaj ncees, hais NATO yog ib pab tub rog tiv thaiv, peb puas tau hnov qab Libya? Peb puas nco qab Afghanistan? Peb puas nco qab Yugoslavia? Kuv xav tias qhov no yog qhov ruam tiag tiag.
Thiab cia kuv hais ib kab lus ntxiv rau NATO. NATO hais tias nws yog North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Qhov no tsis muaj tseeb lawm. NATO yog kev sib koom ua tub rog loj tshaj plaws hauv ntiaj teb, nrog lub ntsiab tseem ceeb tseem nyob ib puag ncig Tuam Tshoj, nrog rau tag nrho cov ntawv cog lus tshiab nrog Nyiv, Kaus Lim Qab Teb, Malaysia, Philippines, kawg thiab kawg. Yog li, nws yog qhov loj tshaj plaws - keeb kwm kev sib koom ua tub rog loj tshaj plaws hauv ntiaj teb, thiab nws tsis yog, twv yuav raug hu ua kev thaj yeeb nyab xeeb. Nws tseem yog tsim muaj ntau yam teeb meem rau kev thaj yeeb nyab xeeb thiab kev nyab xeeb.
JOHN GONZÁLEZ: Koj puas tuaj yeem tham, Reiner Braun, txog qhov tseem ceeb ntawm German tus lwm thawj coj saib xyuas kev xav tsis thoob rau Kyiv?
REINER Xim av: Koj paub, dua, tag nrho cov tswv cuab ntawm German parliament tau mus xyuas Kyiv txog tam sim no, thiab tus thawj coj ntawm kev lag luam ploj lawm. Thiab nws ua dab tsi, nws tau mus nrog kev lag luam loj ntawm peb lub teb chaws, vim hais tias nyob rau hauv lub redevelopment ntawm lub teb chaws, lub reconstruction ntawm lub teb chaws Ukraine, kuj lub German kev lag luam xav kom tau nyiaj ntau, zoo li peb yog cov profiteer ntawm. tag nrho cov tshiab txoj kev loj hlob nyob rau hauv East lub teb chaws Yelemees thiab nyob rau hauv East Europe. Thiab qhov ntawd yog qhov laj thawj tseem ceeb uas nws mus.
Thiab lub ntsiab lus nthuav yog tias lawv tab tom tham txog kev tsim kho ntawm Ukraine. Tab sis dab tsi yog xav tau rau lub reconstruction ntawm Ukraine? Thawj kauj ruam yuav tsum yog kev tso tseg thiab kev sib tham. Yog li, cia siab tias, tus thawj tswj hwm, Habeck, yuav los rau lub tswv yim zoo los txhawb peb txoj haujlwm uas tam sim ntawd kev txiav txim siab thiab kev sib tham rau Ukraine yog qhov xav tau, uas peb tuaj yeem pib nrog kev tsim kho ntawm lub teb chaws uas raug puas tsuaj loj no.
AMY GOODMAN: Reiner Braun, yog tias koj tuaj yeem tham txog cov lus pom zoo los ntawm German cov nom tswv rau kev sib tham uas Ukrainian tus thawj tswj hwm, Zelensky, tsis lees paub lub asthiv no?
REINER Xim av: Koj paub, nthuav, nws tsis lees paub peb qhov kev thov los ntawm nws tus thawj coj txawv tebchaws, tab sis nws tau txhawb nqa cov lus pom zoo los ntawm Tuam Tshoj, uas zoo ib yam, hais tias peb xav tau kev sib tham kom kov yeej kev tsov rog no. Thiab lub tswv yim tom qab nws yog tias tsis muaj leej twg tuaj yeem yeej qhov kev ua tub rog no. Yog li, lwm txoj kev yog txuas ntxiv ntawm kev tua txhua hnub. Peb muaj ntau tshaj 200,000 tus neeg tuag txog tam sim no. Thiab thaum peb tab tom xav txog qhov kev hu ua tub rog caij nplooj ntoos hlav tawm tsam, peb yuav muaj tej zaum yuav rov zoo li qub. Qhov kev xaiv yog dab tsi? Lwm txoj hauv kev yog tsis lees txais qhov xwm txheej tiag tiag, tab sis kom nres kev ua tsov rog thiab pib ntawm kev sib tham txog kev txhim kho tshiab hauv Ukraine thiab txoj kev sib haum xeeb tshiab hauv Tebchaws Europe.
Thiab peb qhov kev tawm tswv yim yog tias nws tsis tuaj yeem ua qhov no los ntawm European kev xav, vim hais tias cov tebchaws nyob sab Europe, txog txhua yam, tau koom nrog kev ua tsov rog los ntawm kev cob qhia cov tub rog Ukrainian, xa riam phom, los ntawm cov neeg soj xyuas kev tawm tsam thiab los ntawm kev ruaj ntseg lub hom phiaj. Yog li tsuas yog qhov ua tau yog tias peb muaj kev sib haum xeeb thoob ntiaj teb los ntawm Ntiaj Teb Sab Qab Teb los ua tus neeg saib xyuas lossis tus neeg kho kom haum xeeb rau txoj kev thaj yeeb nyab xeeb. Thiab qhov no yog vim li cas peb thiaj hais tias peb txhawb nqa cov lus qhia ntawm Brazil thiab Tuam Tshoj, Indonesia thiab Is Nrias teb los tsim kom muaj kev sib haum xeeb zoo li no. Thiab peb cia siab tias qhov kev sib haum xeeb no yuav tau txais kev txhawb nqa los ntawm tsoomfwv lub teb chaws Yelemees thiab Fabkis.
Txawm li cas los xij, peb yuav ua haujlwm rau qhov no. Thiab qhov no tuaj yeem tsim ib qho chaw rau kev sib tham thiab kev txwv tsis pub tua neeg niaj hnub no thiab qhib lub qhov rooj rau kev thaj yeeb nyab xeeb thiab zoo dua yav tom ntej rau Ukraine, tab sis rau tag nrho cov teb chaws Europe, vim tias lwm txoj hauv kev yog qhov nce ntxiv. Thiab peb pom nws nrog depleted uranium. Peb pom nws nrog cov nukes tshiab hauv Belorussia. Peb yog, ib kauj ruam dhau los, nce qhov xwm txheej, uas muaj kev phom sij ua rau muaj kev tsov rog nuclear. Lwm txoj hauv kev yog kev sib tham thiab kev tsis sib haum xeeb.
JOHN GONZÁLEZ: Thiab kuv xav coj Atte Harjanne rov los tham txog qhov teeb meem no ntawm: Puas yog kev tso tseg thiab kev sib tham tau mus rau kev daws teeb meem ntawm kev ua tsov ua rog? Koj tau tawm suab yav dhau los thawb tsoomfwv European kom muaj kev ua tub rog ntau dua rau Ukraine.
atte HARJANNE: Yog lawm. Kuv xav tias qhov tseeb yog nyob ntawm no tias kev sib tham txog kev thaj yeeb nyab xeeb - hais txog kev thaj yeeb nyab xeeb tsis tuaj yeem ua tiav ntawm Ukrainians taub hau. Ukraine yog ib lub teb chaws sovereign nyob rau hauv ib tug ua phem ua phem los ntawm Russia. Yog li, peb yuav tsum zam qhov tsis muaj tseeb symmetry hauv qhov xwm txheej. Txog kev nce ntxiv, nws zoo nkauj npaum li tias Russia yog hom kev siv qhov nce ntxiv raws li lub hauv paus los sim txwv kev txhawb nqa rau Ukraine. Thiab peb yuav tsum ua kom ntseeg tau tias raws li kev ywj pheej Western lub teb chaws, peb ua kom peb pab Ukrainians los tiv thaiv lawv tus kheej lub hwj chim, lawv tus kheej lub neej, lawv txoj kev ywj pheej thiab cov txiaj ntsig uas peb tuav.
Tab sis, ntawm chav kawm, thaum kawg, tom qab tsov rog los muaj kev thaj yeeb. Thiab peb yuav tsum xyuas kom meej tias muaj chaw rau kev thaj yeeb nyab xeeb, tab sis nws tsis tuaj yeem sib tham dua Ukrainian - Ukrainians. Yog li, lawv yuav tsum tau hais dhau cov nqe lus. Thiab nyob rau lub sijhawm no, nws tseem ceeb heev uas yuav tsum ua kom muaj kev txhawb nqa tub rog thiab kev txhawb nqa pej xeem nyob rau theem uas pab cov Ukrainians kom tau txais lub zog siab thiab tuav lub siab ntawm kev ua tsov rog no, uas yog tag nrho - tag nrho, tag nrho lub luag haujlwm ntawm kev ua tsov rog. nyob rau hauv Russia thiab nyob rau hauv lub Kremlin.
AMY GOODMAN: Atte Harjanne, yog tias koj tuaj yeem tham txog kev xaiv tsa uas nyuam qhuav tshwm sim hauv Finland? Koj muaj tus thawj tswj hwm tshiab - kho kuv yog tias kuv tshaj tawm nws lub npe tsis raug - Petteri Orpo, uas tau tawm tsam yeej ntawm 20.8% ntawm cov pov npav, pawg sab xis ntawm National Coalition Party, tawm tsam Prime Minister Marin tog, sab laug sab. Social Democrats, uas tau txais yuav luag 20%. Cov no yog cov lej tsawg heev. Qhov no txhais li cas rau Finland?
atte HARJANNE: Zoo, kuv xav tias nws txhais tau tias yog ib hom kev tig mus rau txoj kev saib xyuas ntau dua, txoj cai sab xis. Kuv xav tias qhov teeb meem tseem ceeb ntawm no yog kev lag luam. Yog li, hom - yuav ua li cas kom paub tseeb tias peb - lossis, lub hom phiaj tseem ceeb ntawm tus thawj tswj hwm tshiab yog los tawm tsam cov nuj nqis thiab sib npaug kev lag luam ntawm Finland. Yog li, qhov ntawd yog qhov teeb meem tseem ceeb ntawm kev xaiv tsa.
Hais txog kev ruaj ntseg txawv teb chaws, raws li koj paub, lub NATO kev txiav txim siab nws tus kheej tau ua tiav nrog cov neeg feem coob, thiab tsis muaj lub koom haum sawv cev lossis ob tog tau tawm tsam, tiag tiag, kev nkag mus. Yog li, tej zaum nws yog qhov tseeb tias txoj cai tswjfwm kev ruaj ntseg txawv teb chaws, lub tswv yim uas peb tau cog lus rau NATO thiab tseem tau cog lus txhawb nqa Ukraine, Kuv tsis pom muaj kev hloov pauv loj nyob ntawd.
Tus Thawj Fwm Tsav Tebchaws Marin, nws tiag tiag - nws tau ua tiav qhov kev yeej, kom nws tog tau txais ntau lub rooj, uas yog qhov txawv heev rau tus thawj tswj hwm zaum. Thiab nws tseem [inaudible] tau txais ntau qhov kev xaiv tsa hauv nws qhov chaw pov npav. Tab sis, yog, yog li ntawd, qhov teeb meem, theej, yog domestic thiab loj nyiaj txiag thiab lub regional economic teeb meem uas tiag tiag ces txiav txim siab pov npav, yog li hais.
JOHN GONZÁLEZ: Reiner Braun, peb tsuas muaj li 30 vib nas this los yog li ntawd, tab sis koj puas tuaj yeem tham txog kev tawm tsam kev tawm tsam hauv lub tebchaws Yelemes, koj cov phiaj xwm rau lub Plaub Hlis, thiab cov xov xwm German tau hais txog kev tsov rog hauv Ukraine li cas?
REINER Xim av: Koj paub, peb muaj — peb nyob pem hauv ntej ntawm peb Easter marches. Peb yuav muaj kaum txhiab tus neeg nyob ntawm txoj kev nyob rau hnub tom ntej. Nov yog peb ib kauj ruam ntawm peb cov dej num loj. Thiab, koj paub, peb tab tom taug qab cov dej num loj hauv Munich thiab Berlin thaum pib ntawm lub xyoo.
Tab sis rau kuv cov npoj yaig, nws muaj kev nkag siab yuam kev ntawm kev ua tsov rog. Nws tsis yog tsuas yog Russia thiab Ukrainian tsov rog. Nws yog kev ua tsov rog proxy thiab kev tsov kev rog. Thiab hais tias tag nrho lub luag haujlwm yog los ntawm Russia, qhov no underestimates txoj kev loj hlob mus rau tsov rog. Thiab kuv xav tias qhov no yog qhov yuam kev loj heev uas tsis pom muaj dab tsi tshwm sim nrog Minsk daim ntawv cog lus thiab vim li cas peb tus thawj tswj hwm thiab Macron tau dag txog Minsk daim ntawv cog lus thiab tsis xav ua. Yog li, kuv xav tias nws yog qhov yooj yim heev los hais tias tag nrho lub luag haujlwm yog los ntawm Russia,.
AMY GOODMAN: Reiner Braun, peb yuav tsum tau tawm ntawm nws mus. Peb ua tsaug ntau, yav dhau los tus thawj coj ntawm International Peace Bureau, thiab Atte Harjanne, Green member of Parliament in Finland. Kuv yog Amy Goodman, nrog Juan González.
German Peace Activist ceeb toom Finland koom nrog NATO tuaj yeem yog kauj ruam mus rau Nuclear Tsov Rog nrog Russia
Finland tus thawj tswj hwm thiab tus thawj tswj hwm hais tias lawv npaj yuav xaus ntau xyoo ntawm kev tsis sib haum xeeb thiab koom nrog NATO. Sweden tseem xav kom nrhiav NATO kev ua tswv cuab. Lub Kremlin hais tias Russia pom kev nthuav dav ntawm NATO ntawm nws ciam teb raws li kev hem thawj. Reiner Braun, tus thawj coj ntawm International Peace Bureau hais tias, "Cov neeg ntawm ob tog yuav raug kev txom nyem," hais tias Russia yuav nce ntxiv hauv kev teb thiab txav ntau riam phom nuclear nyob ze ntawm 830-mais-ntev Finland-Russia ciam teb.
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AMY GOODMAN: Qhov no yog Kev ywj pheej tam sim no!, Democracynow.org, Kev Tsov Rog thiab Kev Tshaj Tawm QhiaCov. Kuv yog Amy Goodman.
Finland tus thawj tswj hwm thiab tus thawj tswj hwm tshaj tawm lawv txoj kev txhawb nqa hnub Thursday rau Finland koom nrog NATO, xaus xyoo caum ntawm neutrality. Cov thawj coj tau hu rau Finland los thov NATO kev ua tswv cuab tsis tau ncua. Finland koom nrog 830-mais ciam teb nrog Russia. Sweden tseem xav kom koom nrog Finland hauv kev nrhiav NATO ua tswv cuab, ib yam dab tsi ob peb tham ua ntej Russia tus ntxeem tau ntawm Ukraine. Russia teb rau cov xov xwm los ntawm hem tias yuav ua pauj cov kauj ruam txhawm rau txhawm rau txwv qhov nws hu ua kev hem thawj rau nws lub teb chaws kev ruaj ntseg. Lub New York Times lus ceeb toom qhov sib ntxiv ntawm Finland thiab Sweden rau NATO nce qhov kev cia siab ntawm kev ua tsov rog dav dav ntawm Russia thiab sab hnub poob.
Tam sim no peb mus rau Berlin, lub teb chaws Yelemees, qhov chaw uas peb tau koom nrog Reiner Braun, tus thawj coj ntawm International Peace Bureau, German kev thaj yeeb nyab xeeb, keeb kwm, tus sau, uas tau tawm tsam ntau xyoo tawm tsam. NATO.
Koj tuaj yeem tham txog qhov kev txiav txim siab no los ntawm Finland tus thawj tswj hwm thiab tus thawj tswj hwm thiab qhov tseem ceeb ntawm qhov no? Nws zoo li Sweden yog, koj paub, ntawm lawv sab hauv qhov no.
REINER Xim av: Koj paub, nws yog, dua, hloov pauv tseem ceeb hauv kev ruaj ntseg hauv Tebchaws Europe. Qhov tseem ceeb tshaj plaws thiab ua ntej, nws yog kev sib cog lus. Finland muaj daim ntawv cog lus nrog Russia - thawj daim ntawv cog lus yog los ntawm 1948, qhov thib ob yog ib qho tshiab los ntawm 1992 - uas tau piav qhia txog kev tsis sib haum xeeb thiab kev phooj ywg ntawm Finland thiab Russia yog keeb kwm ntawm lawv txoj kev sib raug zoo. Thiab Finland tsis tau - tsis tau tso tseg qhov kev cog lus no, yog li lawv tau tawm tsam qhov kev cog lus no, uas yog qhov ua txhaum cai uas lawv tau ua.
Qhov thib ob taw tes yog kev sib raug zoo ntawm Central Europe los yog NATO thiab Russia los ntawm kev siv tub rog yog kwv yees li 50 rau ib txog tam sim no. Tam sim no nws yuav yog 70 lossis 80 rau ib qho. Thiab nws yog pom tseeb tias Russia yuav teb. Yog li peb muaj dua ib qho kev txuas ntxiv ntawm kev nce mus rau hauv nruab nrab ntawm Tebchaws Europe, thiab qhov no tsis muaj kev thaj yeeb. Dab tsi yuav tsum yog tom ntej? Yuav tsum yog tom ntej Moldavia thiab Georgia? Yuav tsum yog tom ntej uas peb - uas Kazakhstan lossis Uzbekistan yuav koom NATO? Nws yuav yog tom ntej no, Nyiv?
Thiab dab tsi yog cov tshuaj tiv thaiv ntawm Russia? Lawv yuav nqa riam phom nuclear ntxiv rau ciam teb ntawm Poland thiab lub tebchaws Baltic. Lawv yuav nthuav lawv cov kev siv tub rog. Cov neeg ntawm ob sab yuav raug kev txom nyem. Yog li nws yog ib kauj ruam tiag tiag ntawm kev coj ua tsis ncaj ncees lawm, uas yog qhov tseeb tsis muaj txiaj ntsig rau kev tuaj rau qhov tshiab kev ruaj ntseg architecture tom qab vam tias yuav xaus sai li sai tau ua tsov rog hauv Ukraine.
Qhov peb xav tau yog kev sib tham, thiab rau Finland, uas muaj keeb kwm ntawm kev tsis sib haum xeeb - Finland yog lub teb chaws ntawm OSCE thiab cov CSCE kev cog lus. Muaj cov rooj sib tham, nyob hauv Helsinki. Lub sijhawm no yuav dhau mus. Finland yuav tso tseg nws txoj haujlwm ywj pheej, ua haujlwm nqa East thiab West ua ke, tsuas yog koom nrog NATO, tsuas yog ua ib feem me me hauv lub NATO architecture. Qhov no yog ib qho kev tsis ncaj ncees thiab tsis muaj kev ruaj ntseg rau kev ruaj ntseg nyob hauv Europe.
AMY GOODMAN: Koj puas tuaj yeem tham txog tsab ntawv uas koj tau pab sau, ob qho tib si rau Thawj Tswj Hwm Putin thiab Thawj Tswj Hwm Zelensky ntawm Ukraine, hu rau kev tso tseg?
REINER Xim av: Koj paub, rau peb yog lub Tsib Hlis 9 yog hnub keeb kwm, uas ua rau cov teb chaws Europe tsis muaj fascism. Thiab lub teb chaws uas coj cov neeg raug tsim txom tshaj plaws yog Soviet Union, suav nrog Russia thiab Ukraine. Yog li ntawd, peb tsab ntawv yog hais tias, thaum koj hais lus nyob rau hauv lub 8th los yog 9th ntawm lub Tsib Hlis, tom qab cov lus no, koj yuav tsum tuaj ua ke thiab sib tham kom muaj kev thaj yeeb nyob rau hauv cov kev lig kev cai ntawm yeej saum lub fascist system. Thiab koj yuav tsum xav txog txoj hauv kev yuav ua li cas koj tuaj yeem sib sau ua ke dua cov neeg ntawm ob lub tebchaws no, uas muaj ntau yam sib xws, uas muaj ntau yam hauv lawv cov keeb kwm sib xws, uas muaj ntau yam ua ke hauv cov lus, hauv kev ua liaj ua teb. , hauv cov ntawv cog lus, hauv kev kawm. Thiab peb yuav tsum kov yeej qhov kev sib cais txaus ntshai ntawm ob lub tebchaws no.
Thiab thawj lub ntsiab lus uas peb tab tom hu rau yog thiab yog kev tso tseg. Lub Tsib Hlis 8 thiab 9 tau dhau mus. Nws yog kev khuv leej uas peb tsis tuaj yeem pib nrog kev sib tham. Tab sis peb yuav txuas ntxiv ua haujlwm ntawm kev sib tua. Thiab kuv xav tias peb xav tau ntau lub siab thoob ntiaj teb rau cov kev sib tham no. Thiab rau kuv, Pope tau xa ib qho kev nthuav dav thiab muaj kev cia siab heev rau kev pib cov kev sib tham no. Kuv vam tias lwm tus thawj coj nom tswv hauv ntiaj teb - tej zaum Macron, tej zaum Xi los ntawm Tuam Tshoj - yuav ua raws li coj ob lub tebchaws no, Russia thiab Ukraine, ntawm tib lub rooj sib tham.
AMY GOODMAN: Koj puas tuaj yeem piav qhia qhov kev sib haum xeeb ntawm koj thiab ntau pab pawg tau npaj rau lub Rau Hli hauv Spain?
REINER Xim av: Koj paub, muaj ib NATO lub rooj sib tham. Thiab NATO yog lub koom haum tub rog loj tshaj plaws hauv ntiaj teb. NATO yog tus siv tub rog loj tshaj plaws. Rau caum feem pua ntawm tag nrho cov nyiaj uas siv thoob ntiaj teb yog siv los ntawm cov NATO lub teb chaws. Yog li, qhov no NATO Lub rooj sib tham yuav xa cov paib nyob rau hauv qhov kev coj tsis ncaj kiag li: kev ua tub rog ntau dua, kev ua ntau dua tawm tsam Russia thiab Tuam Tshoj, ntau dua ntawm ob lub tebchaws no.
Thiab peb xav tawm tsam thiab yaum ntau qhov chaw ntawm cov pej xeem tias qhov no yog txoj kev tsis ncaj ncees lawm. Nov yog txoj hauv kev rau kev puas tsuaj. Qhov no yog ib txoj hauv kev ua tsov rog tshiab nuclear yuav yog kev tsov rog nuclear zaum kawg. Peb tsis tuaj yeem ua txoj cai zoo li no thaum koj xav daws qhov teeb meem huab cua, thaum koj xav kov yeej kev tshaib kev nqhis. Kev tshaib kev nqhis yuav muaj zog heev txij li thaum peb muaj kev tsov rog Ukrainian. Yuav ua li cas cov neeg no nyob rau hauv teb chaws Africa yuav ciaj sia thaum tsis muaj qoob loo lawm los ntawm Ukraine thiab Russia?
Yog li, peb xav hais cov cim qhia tias peb xav tau lwm txoj hauv kev. Yog li peb lub rooj sib tham yog lub rooj sib tham rau kev tshaj tawm thiab kev ua haujlwm rau txoj cai ntawm kev ruaj ntseg ib puag ncig, uas nyob rau hauv keeb kwm yav dhau hais tias peb yuav tsum coj mus rau hauv tus account kev nyab xeeb ntawm txhua lub teb chaws. Thiab peb xav tau, hauv tebchaws thiab thoob ntiaj teb, txheej txheem ntawm kev tshem riam phom. Nws tsis muaj peev xwm siv nyiaj ntau dua 2 trillion US las rau kev ua tub rog, thaum tib neeg raug kev txom nyem thiab thaum peb tsis paub yuav daws cov teeb meem huab cua li cas.
AMY GOODMAN: Zoo, Reiner Braun, Kuv xav ua tsaug rau koj nyob nrog peb, tus thawj coj ntawm International Peace Bureau, German kev thaj yeeb nyab xeeb, keeb kwm thiab tus sau, uas tau tawm tsam US lub hauv paus huab cua hauv Ramstein thiab tseem tawm tsam. NATO.
