Ake Sikhokhe Imali Yempi

Kusukela I-Intercept, Juni 18, i-2020

Lona umbhalo wesiqephu se I-Podcast Engakhiwe ehambisana nomeluleki wenqubomgomo yezangaphandle kaBernie Sanders u-Matt Duss eno-Mehdi Hasan.

I-THE UNITED STATES inesabelomali sezempi esikhulu kunazo zonke emhlabeni, esibalela amaphesenti angu-15 azo zonke izindleko zenhlangano futhi cishe ingxenye yazo zonke izimali ezisetshenziswa ngokubona. Omongameli bazo zombili izinhlangothi bahluleke kaningi ukulawula isabelomali sePentagon. USen. Bernie Sanders waseVermont ube ngelinye lamazwi anomsindo kuCongress ephikisana ngokuncishiswa okukhulu; umeluleki wakhe omkhulu wenqubomgomo yezangaphandle, uMat Duss, ujoyina uMehdi Hasan ukuze abeke icala lokuhoxisa iPentagon.

UMat Duss: Lempi yomhlaba wonke yobushokobezi, egcina i-United States isezingeni lempi yomhlaba wonke, yonakalisa intando yeningi yethu, iholele kupolitiki yobandlululo olushubile nakakhulu, futhi isikhiqize esikubona emigwaqweni yethu-ikhiqize uDonald Trump!

[I-interlude yomculo.]

UMehdi Hasan: Siyakwamukela ku-Deconstructed, ngingu-Mehdi Hasan.

Ngesonto eledlule, sikhulume ngokuhlehlisa imali yamaphoyisa. Kuleli sonto: Ingabe yisikhathi sokubuyisela amasosha?

MD: Singakwazi yini ukugcina abantu bethu bephephile ngemali encane kunaleyo esiyisebenzisayo manje? Nakanjani singakwazi.

MH: Lesi yisivakashi sami namuhla, u-Matt Duss, umeluleki omkhulu wenqubomgomo yezangaphandle kuSenator Bernie Sanders.

Kodwa ingabe ukusika isabelomali sempi yaseMelika ekhukhumele, kuthatha iPentagon enamandla onke, iphupho eliqhubekayo lamapayipi noma umbono osekufike isikhathi sakhe ekugcineni?

Masenze umbuzo osheshayo.

Umbuzo 1: Isiphi isakhiwo samahhovisi esikhulu kunazo zonke emhlabeni?

Impendulo: I-Pentagon. Amamitha-skwele ayizigidi eziyisithupha nohhafu wendawo ephelele yaphansi - ubukhulu obuphindwe kathathu bendawo yesitezi se-Empire State Building. Kukhulu.

Umbuzo 2: Ubani noma yimuphi umqashi omkhulu emhlabeni?

Impendulo: Kodwa futhi, iPentagon, enabasebenzi abacishe babe yizigidi ezintathu. Amasosha aseShayina angena endaweni yesibili nabasebenzi abangaphezu kwezigidi ezimbili, kanti iWalmart isendaweni yesithathu.

Umbuzo 3: Yimuphi umnyango wezokuvikela onesabelomali sezempi esikhulu kunazo zonke emhlabeni?

Impendulo: Ukuqagele, uMnyango Wezokuvikela wase-US, iPentagon!

Yebo, inkulu cishe ngazo zonke izindlela ongacabanga ngayo - ngaphezu kokukhulu. Isabelomali sezempi sase-US manje simi ku-$ 736 billion, okusho ukuthi i-Pentagon isebenzisa imali eningi ekuvikeleni njengoba amazwe e-10 alandelayo emhlabeni ehlangene - ehlangene! Eqinisweni, cishe ama- $ 10 kuwo wonke ama- $ XNUMX asetshenziswa kwezempi, emhlabeni jikelele, minyaka yonke, achithwa kwezempi yase-US. Kuyahlekisa lokho!

Umsakazi wezindaba: I-"Defund the police" isuke engomeni yombhikisho yaya esihlokweni esibucayi sezingxoxo zenqubomgomo.

MH: Sikhuluma kakhulu kulezi zinsuku mayelana nokuhoxiswa kwamaphoyisa ngemali, futhi kufanele. Ngakho-ke akusona yini isikhathi esibuye sakhuluma ngokuhoxisa imali yePentagon, ukuhoxisa amasosha?

Njengokusetshenziswa kwemali yamaphoyisa, i-US ikuligi yayo yokuchitha imali kwezempi. Futhi njengokuchithwa kwamaphoyisa, ukusetshenziswa kwezempi kuncisha abantu baseMelika imali engasetshenziswa kangcono kwenye indawo.

I-Washington Post yabika ngonyaka odlule ukuthi uma i-US isebenzisa ingxenye efanayo ye-GDP yayo kwezokuvikela njengoba kwenza amazwe amaningi aseYurophu, “ingaxhasa inqubomgomo yomhlaba wonke yokunakekelwa kwezingane, yandise umshuwalense wezempilo kubantu baseMelika abangaba izigidi ezingu-30 abangenawo, noma ukuhlinzeka ngokutshalwa kwezimali okukhulu ekulungiseni ingqalasizinda yesizwe.”

Futhi lolu akulona uhlobo oluthile lwenganekwane, ekhululekile yentando yeningi yezenhlalakahle - umqondo wokunciphisa ukusetshenziswa kwezempi nokusebenzisa imali ukuxhasa ezinye, izinto ezingcono, ezinobudlova obuncane. Nansi indlela umongameli weRiphabhulikhi uDwight Eisenhower, owayengujenene ophambili, ngendlela, akubeka ngayo enkulumweni yakhe ethi “Ithuba Lokuthula” ngo-1953:

UMongameli Dwight D. Eisenhower: Zonke izibhamu ezenziwayo, yonke imikhumbi yempi eqalwayo, wonke amarokhethi adubulayo asho, ngomqondo wokugcina, ukweba kulabo abalambile nabangondliwa, labo ababandayo nabangagqokile.

MH: Enkulumweni yakhe yokumvalelisa yango-1961, u-Eisenhower uphinde waxwayisa ngamandla kanye nokubusa kwesikhungo sezimboni zamasosha ase-US, esihlale sifuna ukusetshenziswa kwemali eyengeziwe kwezokuvikela - kanye nezimpi ezengeziwe:

I-DDE: Emikhandlwini kahulumeni, kufanele sikugweme ukutholwa kwethonya elingafuneki, noma lifunwa noma lingafunwa, yinhlangano yezempi nezimboni.

MH: Kodwa izixwayiso zika-Ike zawela ezindlebeni ezingezwa. Inzuzo yokuthula okwakufanele ibe umphumela wokuphela kweMpi Yomshoshaphansi ayizange ibe khona. Ngaphansi kuka-George W. Bush sathola i-War on Terror yomhlaba wonke. Futhi u-Barack Obama kungenzeka ukuthi ulethe ukusikeka okunesizotha kwisabelomali sezokuvikela kodwa njengoba umagazini i-Atlantic washo ku-2016: "Phakathi nesikhathi sakhe sobumongameli [...] amasosha ase-US azobe enikeze imali eningi ezinhlelweni ezihlobene nempi kunayo. wenza ngaphansi kukaBush: $866 billion ngaphansi kuka-Obama uma kuqhathaniswa namaRandi ayizigidi eziyizinkulungwane ezingu-811 ngaphansi kukaBush.”

Namuhla, ngaphansi kukaTrump, i-United States isebenzisa imali eningi kwezempi yayo kunanoma yisiphi isikhathi kusukela ngeMpi Yezwe II, ngaphandle nje kokuhlasela kwe-Iraq ekuqaleni kwawo-2000s. Impi yase-Iraq, ngendlela, ibize i-US ngaphezulu kwama- $ 2 trillion, i-War on Terror, iyonke, ngaphezulu kwama- $ 6 trillion, kanti isabelomali sePentagon, kule minyaka eyishumi ezayo, kubikezelwa ukuthi izobiza ngaphezulu kwama- $ 7 trillion.

Kungani? Kungani kuchithwa imali engaka emnyangweni kahulumeni ongakwazi ngisho nokucwaningwa kahle, ongakwazi ukukhokhela izigidigidi nezigidigidi zamarandi ekusetshenzisweni kwemali, okuyimbangela yodlame nokufa okungaka emhlabeni jikelele - ikakhulukazi ukufa kwabantu abamnyama nabamnyama. abantu abansundu ezindaweni ezifana neMpumalanga Ephakathi noma i-Horn of Africa?

Uma usekela ukuhoxiswa kwemali kwamaphoyisa, futhi umsunguli we-Black Lives Matter u-Patrisse Cullors walibeka ngembaba elokukhuluma nangokukholisayo - kulolu hlelo, ngesonto eledlule. Uma usekela ukuhoxiswa kwemali kwamaphoyisa, njengoba ngenza, kufanele futhi usekele ukukhishwa kwePentagon, ukubuyisela amasosha. Kuyinto engenangqondo.

Futhi angisho ukuthi hhayi nje ngenxa yawo wonke u-Tom Cotton, asithumele amasosha, i-New York Times op-ed, noma iqiniso lokuthi 30,000 National Guardsmen kanye 1,600 XNUMX amasosha amaphoyisa asebenzayo kanye nezinsana kulethwe ukusiza umthetho wendawo. ukuphoqelela umthetho - okuvame ukuba nodlame - kubuyisela emuva imibhikisho emelene nokucwasa ezweni lonke emasontweni asanda kwedlula.

Ngithi amasosha ahoxise imali ngoba lesi yisikhungo saseMelika esinodlame, esinesabelomali esingalawuleki, esikhungethwe ukucwasa ngokwezikhungo, futhi sigcwele amadoda ahlomile aqeqeshelwe ukubona iningi labantu abamnyama nabansundu abahlangana nabo phesheya njengosongo. .

Khumbula: Izimpi zakwamanye amazwe amasosha ase-US ezilwa nazo bezingeke zibe khona ngaphandle kokucwasa ngokwebala, ngaphandle kombono wokucwasa umhlaba. Uma ufuna ukuqhumisa amabhomu noma ukuhlasela izwe langaphandle eligcwele abantu abansundu-noma abanebala elinsundu, njengoba amasosha ase-United States evamise ukwenza, kufanele uqale ngokufaka amadimoni labo bantu, ubathuntubeze, uphakamise ukuthi bangabantu abasemuva abadinga ukusindiswa. noma abantu abanonya abadinga ukubulawa.

Ukucwasa ngokwebala kuyingxenye ebalulekile yenqubomgomo yezangaphandle yase-US futhi bekulokhu kuyisici esiyinhloko salokho. Ngikhumbula lo mzila omubi owashintsha ngemva kokuba uRodney King eshaywe ngendlela engafanele ekhamera ngamaphoyisa e-LAPD ngo-1991: “Uma iMelika iyiphoyisa lomhlaba, kusho ukuthi umhlaba unguRodney King waseMelika.”

Njengamanje, unamasosha angu-200,000 ase-US amise phesheya kwezilwandle emazweni angaphezu kuka-150. Unezisekelo zamasosha ase-US zangaphambilini ezingama-800 emazweni angama-80. Ukuqhathanisa nje, amanye amazwe ayi-11 emhlabeni nawo anezisekelo emazweni angaphandle, anezisekelo ezingama-70 phakathi kwawo - phakathi kwawo!

Futhi ukuba khona kwezempi yase-United States, yebo, kulethe ukuthula nokuhleleka kwezinye izingxenye zomhlaba, ngizokuvuma lokho, kunjalo. Kodwa futhi ilethe ukufa okuningi nokubhujiswa kanye nezinxushunxushu kwezinye izingxenye eziningi zomhlaba. Ngokocwaningo olwenziwe yiBrown University ngonyaka odlule, bangaphezu kuka-800,000 abantu asebebulewe ngenxa yezimpi eziholwa yi-US kanye nemikhankaso yokuqhunyiswa kwamabhomu e-Iraq, e-Afghanistan, ePakistan kusukela ngo-9/11 - ngaphezu kwengxenye yesithathu yabo izakhamuzi. . Amakhulu ezinkulungwane ezengeziwe abulawe ngokungaqondile ngenxa yezimpi ezihilela amasosha aseMelika - kusukela ezifweni, ezinkingeni zendle, ukulimala kwengqalasizinda.

Lapha e-US, ngakwesobunxele okungenani, sikhuluma ngokufanele ngokudubula kwamaphoyisa okunonya nokungenakuthethelelwa kanye nokubulawa kwabantu abamnyama abangahlomile. Siyawazi amagama kaWalter Scott, no-Eric Garner, noPhilando Castile, noTamir Rice, futhi, kunjalo, manje, uGeorge Floyd. Ngokudabukisayo, nokho, asiwazi amagama amadoda, abesifazane, nezingane, ababulawa ngesihluku futhi ngokungekho emthethweni amasosha ase-US ezibhicongweni ezindaweni ezifana neShinwar, Kandahar, kanye neMaywand e-Afghanistan; noma izindawo ezifana neHaditha, Mahmoudiya, neBalad e-Iraq. Asiwazi amagama ama-Afghan ahlukunyezwa ejele i-Bagram Air Base e-Afghanistan, noma ama-Iraqi ahlukunyezwa ejele lase-Abu Ghraib e-Iraq.

Abakhokhi bentela baseMelika bakhokhele lokho kuhlukunyezwa kanye nalezo zibhicongo; sikhokhela lezi zimpi eziqhubekayo, ezingapheli - ngesabelomali sezempi esikhukhumele, esikhohlakele kodwa esikhula ngokungapheli - nokho sibuza imibuzo embalwa kakhulu nganoma iyiphi yazo. Ungase uphikise ngokuthi ukuhoxiswa kwezempi kwezempi kuwumsebenzi ophuthumayo futhi odingeka kakhulu kunokuhoxisa imali yamaphoyisa - futhi kuyicala elivulekile nelivaliwe. Noma ngabe iyiphi indlela, ngokubona kwami, ukuhoxisa amaphoyisa izimali kanye nokwehliswa kwezimali zamasosha kufanele kuhambisane.

[I-interlude yomculo.]

MH: Nokho ukuthatha isabelomali sePentagon esikhuphukayo, esibiza ukuncishiswa kwezindleko zezempi zase-US, kungenye yezingqinamba ezinkulu eWashington DC; isho into engachazeki edolobheni lapho iningi lamaDemocrats lilandelana ngemuva kwamaRiphabhulikhi futhi livota ngokwenyuka okukhulu kwezindleko zokuvikela, unyaka nonyaka.

Osopolitiki oyedwa ugqame kwabaningi kulolu daba: UBernie Sanders, uSenator ozimele waseVermont, ophume isibili emncintiswaneni wokuqokwa njengomongameli weDemocratic Alliance ngo-2016 nango-2020, ongelinye lamalungu ambalwa eCongress. ngokuqhubekayo uvote ngokumelene nokwenyuka kwesabelomali sezokuvikela.

Nakhu ekhuluma ngonyaka odlule embuthanweni mayelana ngqo nalolo daba:

USenator Bernie Sanders: Kodwa akuyona nje i-Wall Street nezinkampani zezidakamizwa nezinkampani zomshwalense. Futhi ake ngisho okuthile mayelana nokuthile abantu abambalwa kakhulu abakhuluma ngakho, okungukuthi: Sidinga ukuthatha i-Military Industrial Complex. [Izilaleli zijabule futhi zishaye ihlombe.] Ngeke siqhubeke nokusebenzisa amaRandi ayizigidi eziyizinkulungwane ezingu-700 ngonyaka kwezempi [injabulo yezilaleli]. Sifuna futhi sidinga ukuzivikela okuqinile. Kodwa asikho isidingo sokuchitha ngaphezu kwamazwe ayi-10 alandelayo ehlangene. [Izilaleli zijabule.]

MH: Isivakashi sami namuhla nguMat Duss, umeluleki omkhulu wenqubomgomo yezangaphandle kuSenator Bernie Sanders. UMatt utuswe ngokusiza uSenator Sanders ukuthi aqinise iziqinisekiso zakhe zenqubomgomo yezangaphandle kanye nokucabanga phakathi kwemikhankaso kamongameli wango-2016 no-2020, futhi ubambe iqhaza ekuphokopheleni ukuthi kuthathwe izinyathelo ezinqala ngokumelene nohulumeni waseNetanyahu kwa-Israyeli ngendawo yasePalestine edlalwe kanye nohulumeni waseSaudi eYemen. umkhankaso wabo wokuqhunyiswa kwamabhomu ngesihluku. Ungumongameli wangaphambili we-Foundation for Middle East Peace, umgxeki onamandla wokulwa kwenqubomgomo yezangaphandle yase-US, futhi ungijoyina manje esuka kwakhe e-Washington, DC.

Matt, siyabonga ngokuza ku-Deconstructed.

MD: Ngiyajabula ukuba lapha. Ngiyabonga, Mehdi.

MH: Ingabe ucabanga ukuthi umvoti ovamile waseMelika uyalazi iqiniso lokuthi ukusetshenziswa kwemali kwezokuvikela kubalwa cishe ingxenye yayo yonke imali esetshenziswa ngokubona e-United States, ukuthi i-Pentagon isebenzisa imali eningi ekuvikeleni kunamazwe alandelayo e-10 emhlabeni ehlangene?

MD: Ngingathi cha, abayazi leyo mininingwane. Ngicabanga ukuthi bayalazi iqiniso lokuthi sisebenzisa imali eningi, kodwa bona - ngicabanga ukuthi nabo abazi, futhi lokhu kuyinto uSenator Sanders enze umsebenzi omningi ngayo eminyakeni edlule icacisa lokho esingaba yikho. Ukusebenzisa imali, uyazi, ingxenye yaleyo mali ezotholwa abantu baseMelika, noma ngabe yizindlu, ukunakekelwa kwezempilo, imisebenzi -

MH: Yebo.

MD: - imfundo.

Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi leyo yingxoxo yena nabanye abaningi abathuthukayo abafuna ukuba nayo njengamanje, ikakhulukazi, njengoba sibona, uyazi, ngokucacile kulezi zinyanga ezimbalwa ezedlule, lapho sibhekene nalolu bhubhane, ukuthi ukutshalwa kwezimali kwethu kwezokuphepha kungakanani emashumini eminyaka edlule. basanda kuba izindawo eziningi ezingalungile.

MH: Kwesinye isikhathi ngicabanga ukuthi abantu baseMelika bazonaka kakhulu uma uMnyango Wezokuvikela ubuyela ekubeni uMnyango Wezempi, njengoba wawaziwa kuze kube yi-1947 futhi sinobhala wezempi esikhundleni sikanobhala wezokuvikela.

MD: Cha, ngicabanga ukuthi kukhona okuthile kulokho. Ngisho, uyazi, ukuzivikela, ngokusobala, yebo, ngubani ongafuni ukuzivikela? Kufanele sizivikele lapho kudingeka; impi iyigama elinolaka kakhulu.

Kepha ikakhulukazi emashumini ambalwa eminyaka adlule nge-Global War on Terror, isabelomali sezokuvikela esilokhu sikhuphuka, futhi, ukwengeza kulokho, imisebenzi yezimo eziphuthumayo yaphesheya okuyiyona, uyazi, isikhwama esiqhubekayo sonyaka esikhokhiswa kabusha ukuvumela uMnyango Wezokuvikela ukuthi ungene. I-US ukuthi empeleni iqhube lokhu kungenelela kwezempi ezincwadini, futhi ibeke lokhu emhlane wezingane zethu nabazukulu okufanele bakhokhele.

MH: Ingakanani inqubomgomo yezangaphandle yaseMelika enolaka, Matt, eqhutshwa impi yenqubomgomo yangaphandle? Futhi ingakanani yaleyo mpi eqhutshwa ukucwasa, phakathi kwezinye izinto?

MD: Hhayi-ke, ngicabanga ukuthi kunezingxenye ezimbili zalowo mbuzo. Zombili zibaluleke kakhulu.

Ngicabanga ukuthi, niyazi, ngibuyela emuva, okungenani kuMongameli u-Eisenhower, ngenkathi eshiya isikhundla, waxwayisa ngokuduma ngokuphakama “Kwe-Military Industrial Complex,” igama aliqamba. Futhi umqondo ojwayelekile wawuwukuthi, njengoba wawubona laba bosonkontileka bezokuvikela beba namandla kakhulu futhi benethonya, futhi lolu hlobo, uyazi, ingqalasizinda yenqubomgomo ekhula eduze neMelika, uyazi, indima ekhulayo yomhlaba wonke, ukuthi lezi zintshisekelo zizofika zibe nethonya eliyingozi phezu. ukudalwa kwenqubomgomo yezangaphandle yase-US kanye nenqubomgomo yezokuvikela yase-US, futhi ngingasho ukuthi lokho sekufezekile, uyazi, ngendlela embi kakhulu neyingozi kakhulu kunalokho engicabanga ukuthi ngisho no-Eisenhower ngokwakhe wayesaba.

MH: Yebo.

MD: Niyazi, ingxenye yesibili yalokho - lalela, iMelika yasungulwa, niyazi, ingxenye, niyazi, emcabangweni wobukhosi obumhlophe. Leli yizwe elasungulwa, ngobugqila - elakhelwe emihlane yabantu base-Afrika ababegqilazwe. Sesibhekane nale nkinga isikhathi eside; sisabhekene nayo.

Sibe nentuthuko, ngokungangabazeki: i-Civil Rights Movement, ilungelo lokuvota, senze intuthuko. Kodwa iqiniso liwukuthi, lokhu kugxile kakhulu emasikweni aseMelika, ezombusazwe zaseMelika, ngakho-ke kunengqondo ukuthi kuzobonakala kunqubomgomo yethu yangaphandle, kunqubomgomo yethu yezokuvikela.

Uyazi, uma sengikushilo lokho, kufanelekile futhi ukuqaphela ukuthi amasosha ase-US angesinye sezibonelo eziyimpumelelo nezakuqala zokuhlanganisa. Kodwa noma kunjalo, ukuze siphendule umbuzo wakho, ngicabanga ukuthi siyakubona ukucwasa okuningi okubonakala kunqubomgomo yezangaphandle yaseMelika futhi lokhu kubonakala kuphela ngeMpi Yezwe Lonke Yobushokobezi, edutshulwa ngezimangalo ezimbi mayelana namaSulumane, mayelana nama-Arabhu, wena. yazi, ukwesaba ukwesaba - noma yini, i-Sharia enwabuzelayo, ungagijima phansi ohlwini, uyazi, lezi, uyazi, lezi zinhlobo zezimangalo ze-propaganda kahle kakhulu.

Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi lokhu kuyinto uSenator Sanders akhulume ngayo kakhulu. Uma ubuyela kweyakhe, ucezu alubhala eMnyangweni Wezangaphandle ngonyaka owedlule, lapho akhuluma khona ngokuqeda impi engapheli, hhayi nje ukuqeda lokhu kungenelela okukhulu kwezempi ebesihlanganyele kukho emashumini ambalwa eminyaka edlule, kodwa ukuqonda indlela. ukuthi, uyazi, leMpi Yezwe Lonke Yokwesaba, egcina i-United States isesimweni sempi yomhlaba wonke, yonakalisa intando yeningi yethu; kuholele kupolitiki, yokubandlulula okukhulu nakakhulu nokubandlululwa, kwemiphakathi entulayo, futhi kukhiqize esikubona emigwaqweni yethu, kwakhiqiza uDonald Trump.

MH: Yebo.

MD: Uyazi, ngakho ukuqonda ukuthi lokhu, nguye, uDonald Trump ungumkhiqizo walezi zindlela, akayona imbangela yazo.

MH: Futhi ukuze kucace, kubalaleli bethu, usho uSenator Sanders. Njengelungu leNdlu, ubemelene nempi yase-Iraq ngo-2003. Kodwa wavotela ukuhlasela kwe-Afghanistan ngo-2001 -

MD: Yebo.

MH: - okusekhona nathi, impi yase-Afghan namanje ayikapheli, abantu abaningi balahlekelwa ukuphila kwabo lapho, baqhubeka belahlekelwa izimpilo zabo lapho, igazi eliningi nengcebo, njengoba inkulumo ihamba, ilahlekile lapho. Ngicabanga ukuthi uyazisola ngalelo voti manje, ngabe ngiqinisile uma ngithi?

MD: Nokho, ukushilo lokho kwenye yezinkulumo-mpikiswano zokuqala, lapho ethi, manje, ebheka emuva -

MH: Yebo, wancoma uBarbara Lee ngokuba ukuphela kwevoti elimelene naye.

MD: Impela. Futhi ufanelwe ukudunyiswa okukhulu. Ubeyizwi elilodwa elakwazi ukubona [lokho] ngokunikeza abaphathi bakaBush isheke elingenalutho ukuze baqhube impi engapheli, ukuthi sasingena ngempela endaweni engaziwa neyingozi. Futhi wayeqinisile impela ngalokho; USenator Sanders ukubonile lokho. Ngicabanga ukuthi, abantu abaningi manje sebeyakubona lokho.

Ungasho, okwamanje, ngemuva kuka-9/11, ngicabanga ukuthi bekukhona, uyazi, izizathu ezithile zokungahambisani ne-al Qaeda, kodwa ukudala le ncazelo evulekile, uyazi, i-War on Terror, kanye nalokhu. -

MH: Yebo.

MD: - ukugunyazwa obekungapheli futhi okuchaza ukuthi asikho isimo sokuphela sangempela sokuthi isigunyazo siphela nini, sibe yinhlekelele ezweni lethu nasemiphakathini eminingi emhlabeni jikelele.

MH: Yebo, kwakukhona lesi sikhathi engikhumbula ngaso lapho i-Afghanistan kwakuyimpi enhle futhi i-Iraq kwakuyimpi embi.

MD: Kunene.

MH: Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi manje sesiyabona ngokuhamba kwesikhathi, eminyakeni eyi-19 kamuva, ukuthi zombili kwakuyizimpi ezimbi ngezindlela zazo. Ngokubona kwakho, Matt, futhi ubulokhu uhlanganisa futhi usebenza ngalezi zinto kuleli dolobhana isikhathi eside, ubani noma yini okufanele asolwe ngokusetshenziswa kwezempi kwenqubomgomo yezangaphandle yase-US? Ingabe umbono we-hawkish? Ngabe osopolitiki abazama ukubukeka beqinile? Ingabe kuwukunxenxa i-Military Industrial Complex oyishilo, ngabakwa-Lockheed Martin kanye no-Raytheon balo mhlaba?

MD: Hhayi-ke, ngicabanga ukuthi konke lokhu okungenhla. Ngisho, ngayinye yalezo zinto idlala indima yayo. Ngisho ukuthi, ngokuqinisekile, uyazi, sesike sakhuluma nge-Military Industrial Complex, uyazi, esinganweba kuyo, uyazi, kufaka phakathi i-Military Industrial-Think Tank Complex; amaningi alawa ma- think tank axhaswe ngezimali osonkontileka bezokuvikela, yizinkampani ezinkulu zamazwe ngamazwe -

MH: Yebo.

MD: - noma, kwezinye izimo, uyazi, uyazi, amazwe angaphandle afuna ukusigcina simatasa endaweni yawo futhi siwenzela umsebenzi wawo. Ngakho lokho kuyingxenye yenselele.

Ngicabanga ukuthi kukhona ingxenye yezepolitiki, uyazi, kalula nje, osopolitiki besaba kakhulu ukubonakala bebuthaka kwezokuphepha noma bebuthaka ngenxa yokwesaba. Futhi unalo lolu hlobo lwengqalasizinda yemidiya, le ngqalasizinda yemidiya ephiko kwesokudla, eyenzelwe ukucindezela ukuthi, ukugcina njalo, uyazi, osopolitiki, uyazi, kubo, ezithendeni zabo, besaba ukwenza okuthile. nikeza noma yiluphi uhlobo lombono ohlukile, ongasho lutho ngezempi.

Kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi nawe unayo, futhi ngicabanga ukuthi bekukhona izingcezu ezimbalwa, ezinhle kakhulu ezisanda kubhalwa kulokhu: eyodwa kaJeremy Shapiro, kuleli sonto nje ku-The Boston Review, kanti enye ibibhalwe ngu-Emma Ashford, waseCato Institute. , kwezangaphandle emasontweni ambalwa edlule, ngikhuluma ngalolu daba, niyazi, lokho okubizwa nge-blob. U-Ben Rhodes waqamba lelo gama, kodwa igama elivamile ukusho, uyazi, ukuhlakanipha okuvamile mayelana ne-America, uyazi, indima enamandla yomhlaba wonke. Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi lezo zicucu ezimbili zenza umsebenzi omuhle wokubeka, niyazi, lolu uhlobo lwemibono eqhubekayo edala izikhuthazo ezithile kanye nemivuzo yabantu abawuhlobo lokukhiqiza kabusha lo mbono ngaphandle kokubeka inselele ngokungathi sína isisekelo esiyisisekelo sokuthi i-United. Amazwe adinga ukuba khona emhlabeni wonke; sidinga ukuba namasosha amiswe emhlabeni wonke, kungenjalo umhlaba uzoba nesiphithiphithi.

MH: Futhi ingxabano ye-bipartisan, kunjalo.

MD: Impela.

MH: Njengoba i-War on Terror yayiyi-bipartisan, futhi. Uma ubona izindiza ezinophephela emhlane zinyakaza ababhikishi - njengoba benza ezindaweni ezinempi - endizela phansi ababhikishi eWashington, DC, ukuzama ukubahlakaza ngokuyalelwa yizikhulu eziphezulu ePentagon. Akuyona nje iMpi Yezobushokobezi eza ekhaya, njengoba abanye bethu bexwayise ngokungenakugwenywa?

MD: Cha, ngicabanga ukuthi lokho kulungile. Ngiqonde ukuthi-okungukuthi-sesikubonile lokhu isikhathi eside, sizibonile lezi zinhlelo, uyazi, onazo, besichitha isikhathi esiningi kwezempi, amasosha anakho konke lokhu. imishini, bese beyidlulisela kule minyango yamaphoyisa, iminyango yamaphoyisa iyayifuna, ifuna ukuyisebenzisa.

Sibona amaphoyisa manje egqoke, niyazi, egqoke imvunulo yezempi ngokuphelele, njengokungathi abeqapha imigwaqo, niyazi, Fallujah. Akusho ukuthi sifuna bagade imigwaqo yaseFallujah. Kepha yebo, impela - siyibona le War on Terror iza ekhaya, sabona, niyazi, indiza enophephela emhlane inyakaza ababhikishi isuka [e] Lafayette Square.

Futhi, niyazi, lalela, amaphoyisa aseMelika abe nezinkinga isikhathi eside kakhulu. Ngisho, izinkinga esizibona seziphelile, uyazi, imiboniso ngemuva kokubulawa kukaGeorge Floyd, lezi yizinkinga ezijulile futhi zibuyela emuva, uyazi, amashumi eminyaka, uma kungenjalo amakhulu eminyaka. Kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi indlela i-War on Terror ekusho ngayo lokhu, ikulethe ezingeni elisha neliyingozi kakhulu, futhi ngicabanga ukuthi lezi zishoshovu nababhikishi -

MH: Yebo, okungukuthi-

MD: - bafanelwe isamba esikhulu sekhredithi ngokuveza lezi zinkinga.

MH: Futhi, yingakho bengifuna ukwenza umbukiso ngalesi sihloko namuhla, futhi ngikuqhube, ngoba awukwazi ukuvele ukhulume ngamaphoyisa endaweni engenalutho.

MD: Yebo. Kwesokudla.

MH: I-engeli yezempi ibaluleke kakhulu ekuqondeni lokhu.

Ngisho ukuthi, sibe nemibiko yamasosha alindile emasontweni asanda kwedlula alungele ukungenelela ngokumelene nababhikishi, hhayi nje ngama-bayonet, kodwa nezinhlamvu ezibukhoma. Kanjani leyo akuyona indaba enkulu, ngiyazibuza, ihlazo elikhulu? Akufanele yini ukuthandwa kukaSenator Sanders namanye amaDemocrat aphezulu enkongololweni afune ukulalelwa kulokhu? Ukuthi amasosha aseMelika azodubula izakhamizi zaseMelika ngezinhlamvu ezibukhoma?

MD: Cha, mina, ngicabanga ukuthi kufanele. Ngicabanga ukuthi ngiqonde ukuthi, uma sifuna ukukhuluma ngendlela iCongress engaphenduli ngayo kulo mzuzu ngendlela okufanele, ngisho, yengeze lokhu ohlwini lwezinto.

MH: Yebo.

MD: Kepha ngicabanga ukuthi sibonile, ngicabanga ukuthi ukubuyisela emuva okubaluleke kakhulu kulokhu kushicilelwa kukaTom Cotton ku-New York Times, ngicabanga ukuthi kukhona ngempela -

MH: "Thumela Amasosha."

MD: "Thumela Amasosha" - impikiswano evumelekile mayelana nokuthi ngabe ngabe bakushicilele lokho kwasekuqaleni. Owami umbono uthi i-New York Times akufanele inikeze ukuthuthukiswa kwayo kulezo zinhlobo zemibono; uma ufuna ukwazi ukuthi u-Tom Cotton ucabangani, ziningi izindawo angaya kuzo futhi akushicilele lokho. Akuyona imfihlo.

Kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi impendulo kulokho, ukuqonda ukuthi wayethini ngempela, ukusebenzisa amasosha ase-US ngokumelene nezakhamuzi zaseMelika emigwaqweni yaseMelika, ngicabanga ukuthi uyaqonda ukuthi lokhu, yonke le mpikiswano ifinyelele kude kangakanani nomzila.

MH: Ngiyazibuza nje, ingabe le yindlela yokuzama ukuthola abantu baseMelika, abantu baseMelika abajwayelekile, ukuthi bathathe impi yenqubomgomo yangaphandle, izimpi ezingapheli, isabelomali sePentagon esihlanyayo ngokungathí sina, ngokuyibophela kulokho okwenzeka manje, emigwaqweni yabo?

Matt, bengixoxisana no-Jamaal Bowman ngolunye usuku ongenele umhlangano no-Eliot Engel osesikhundleni, onguSihlalo weKomidi Le-House Foreign Relations, ngiyazi ukuthi ugunyazwe umphathi wakho, nguSenator Sanders, phakathi kwabanye. Futhi mina naye besikhuluma ngokuthi kunzima kangakanani ukuthola abavoti ukuthi bathathe izindaba zenqubomgomo yangaphandle - izimpi zangaphandle, ngisho - ngokungathi sína. Iningi labantu baseMelika, ngokuqondakalayo, ligxile ekukhathazekeni kwasekhaya. Ubenza kanjani ukuthi bathathele phezulu inqubomgomo yezangaphandle?

MD: [Uyahleka.] Uyazi, njengomuntu osebenze kunqubomgomo yangaphandle iminyaka engaphezu kweshumi, lokho - kuyinselelo.

Futhi ngiyaqonda. Iqiniso liwukuthi, abantu abaningi bakhathazekile - bakhathazeke ngezindaba eziseduze kakhulu kubo. Lokho kunengqondo ngokuphelele. Ngakho-ke yebo, ukuthola izindlela zokukhuluma ngenqubomgomo yangaphandle ngendlela ekhuluma ngayo, uyazi, abantu lapho bekhona, uyazi, kubalulekile. Kepha ngasikhathi sinye, ngenkathi ngivumelana nawe ukuthi kufanele sizame futhi sisebenzise lesi sikhathi futhi siqonde indlela i-War on Terror yethu esifike ngayo ekhaya emigwaqweni yethu, futhi asifuni ukuphazamisa, wena. yazi, izinkinga ezijule kakhulu zokubusa kwabamhlophe kanye nokucwasa okubonakalayo futhi, uyazi, eziqhuba lolu dlame.

MH: Akuyona yini inkinga, okuxakayo, ukuthi kubavoti abaningi inqubomgomo yangaphandle iyinto ekude futhi ayisheshi, njengoba usho; kosopolitiki abaningi abakhethiwe, noma kunjalo, inqubomgomo yangaphandle neyokuvikela ibonakala ikakhulukazi nge-prism yasekhaya, ngendlela, uyazi, imisebenzi, izinkontileka zokuzivikela, ukukhathazeka kwezomnotho emazweni abo?

Ngisho nomphathi wakho, uBernie Sanders, naye akagonyiwe kulokho. Ugxekwe abathile Kwesokunxele ngokusekela, eminyakeni edlule, ukutshalwa kwezimali kwezimboni zamasosha eVermont ngenxa yemisebenzi. Usekele ukusingathwa kweJets F-35 Fighter Jets ka-Lockheed Martin, ngicabanga, ebize ngaphezu kwe- $ 1 trillion, futhi ezimbalwa zazo zisingathwe eVermont, futhi wagxekwa ngabasele eVermont ngalokho.

Lokho kuyinkinga yomlayezo, akunjalo? Kosopolitiki okhethiwe ofuna ukuphambana nesabelomali sePentagon, kodwa futhi kufanele abhekane nemisebenzi kanye nokukhathazeka kwezomnotho ezweni lakubo?

MD: Hhayi-ke, ngicabanga ukuthi indlela thina, uyazi, ukuthi uye wakhuluma ngayo futhi ngicabanga ukuthi indlela esicabanga ngayo ifana nokuthi: Lalela, sidinga ukuzivikela. Imisebenzi ibalulekile, kodwa lokho - akuyona yonke indaba. Ngisho ukuthi kukhona, isabelomali simayelana nezinto ezibalulekile.

Ngakho-ke siyakudinga ukuzivikela? Singakwazi yini ukugcina abantu bethu bephephile ngemali encane kunaleyo esiyisebenzisayo manje? Nakanjani, singakwazi. Akudingeki ukuthi sisebenzise imali engaphezu kwamazwe ayi-11 noma ayi-12 alandelayo emhlabeni ehlangene, iningi lawo okungenzeka laba abambisene nathi, ukuze kuvikelwe ukuphepha nokuchuma kwabantu baseMelika.

MH: Yebo.

MD: Ngakho-ke ngicabanga ukuthi kuwumbuzo wokuthi yiziphi izinto eziza kuqala esizibekayo, yiziphi izinhloso zethu zamasu zangempela zokusetshenziswa kwezempi, futhi ingabe sibeka ezempi kuqala kunalokho okufanele sibe yikho? Futhi uSenator Sanders ukholelwa ngokucacile ukuthi besikhona.

MH: Uyenzile. Futhi ukubeke kwacaca kakhulu kulokho, nakuba abaningi bengaphikisa ukuthi i-F-35 Fighter Jet iyisibonelo sokumosha imali okuphelele kwePentagon.

Ube sobala kakhulu odabeni lwesabelomali sisonke. Ukhulume ngokusebenzisa imali engaphezu kwamazwe ayi-10, 11, 12 alandelayo. Ngisho, ukunyuka kwezindleko ngo-2018, isibonelo, ukunyuka ngokwako, ngikholelwa, kwakukukhulu kunesabelomali sonke sokuvikela saseRussia - ukwanda nje.

MD: Kulungile. Kulungile.

MH: Manje kungani amaDemocrat engeziwe, Matt, kungani bengavoti ngokumelene nalokhu kukhuphuka okuqhubekayo, okukhulu, okungadingekile kwisabelomali sezokuvikela? Kungani bekwenza, kungani iningi labo livame ukuhambisana nalo?

MD: Hhayi-ke, ngicabanga ukuthi kungenxa yezizathu ezithile ukuthi, uyazi, sixoxile ngaphambili, ngicabanga ukuthi kukhona ukukhathazeka mayelana nokupendwa njengokuthambile ekuzivikeleni. Kunohlobo olukhulu lwegumbi le-echo elikhona ngokunembile ukuqinisa osopolitiki ngalowo mlayezo, uma - uma bebonakala bengasekeli okuthandwayo, uyazi, osonkontileka bezokuvikela noma abezempi.

Futhi futhi, kunezinkinga ezisebenzayo, ngokuqinisekile maqondana nemisebenzi, ngokuqinisekisa ukuthi, uyazi, amasosha aseMelika ayanakekelwa. Kepha yebo, ngiqonde ukuthi - bekuyinselelo ende. Kube yinto uSenator Sanders abekuyo isikhathi eside, ehlaba umkhosi kulokhu futhi ezama ukuhlanganisa abantu abaningi ukuze bavote ngokumelene nalezi zabelomali zokuvikela ezinkulu nezikhula njalo. Kodwa unomuzwa wokuthi abanye manje sebenaka kakhulu.

MH: Kuyaxaka ukubona amaDemocrats, ngakolunye uhlangothi, egxeka uTrump njengomashiqela, njengomashiqela ekulindeni, njengomuntu obambene noPutin, bese emnika imali eyengeziwe yezempi, imali eyengeziwe yokuqala. izimpi ezintsha. Kuyamangaza nje ukubona lokho kwenzeka, lolo hlobo lwe-cognitive dissonance.

Kusabelomali ngokwaso, kungaba yini inombolo enhle yesabelomali sokuvikela sase-US. Njengamanje, njengoba sixoxile, kuningi, kungaphezu kwamazwe ayi-10 alandelayo ehlangene. Cishe cishe amaphesenti angama-40 okusetshenziswa kwemali kwezokuvikela emhlabeni wonke. Iyiphi isibalo esifaneleka kakhudlwana? Ngoba, njengoba usho, uSenator Sanders akayona i-pacifist. Ukholelwa ekuzivikeleni okuqinile, ukholelwa emasosheni. Ungakanani usayizi olungile webutho lezempi lase-US eliqinile, ngokubona kwakho, ngokubona kwakhe?

MD: Hhayi-ke, njengamanje usebenzela ukuchitshiyelwa koMthetho Wokugunyazwa Kwezokuvikela Kazwelonke, osezinhlelweni zokuthi kuxoxiswane ngawo njengamanje ukuchitshiyelwa okuzonciphisa, ekuqaleni, isabelomali sezokuvikela ngamaphesenti ayishumi.

Ngakho-ke, lokho kungaba cishe amaRandi ayizigidi eziyizinkulungwane ezingama-75, uyazi, amaRandi ayizigidi eziyizinkulungwane ezingama-700, noma mhlawumbe, amaRandi ayizigidi eziyizinkulungwane ezingama-78, wesabelomali esingamabhiliyoni angama-780, esikhulu kakhulu. Kodwa njengendlela yokuqala ukusho, sizothatha u-10%, bese sizotshala lokho, sizokwakha uhlelo lwezibonelelo zokuxhasa imfundo, imisebenzi, izindlu, emiphakathini. abanayo - abanamaphesenti amakhulu abantu abampofu. Futhi lokho kuyisiqalo, kodwa futhi kuyindlela yokusho ukuthi yilapho okufanele sibeke phambili phambili. Lena imiphakathi edinga le mali.

MH: Nokho, ngiyajabula ngokuthi uyakwenza lokho. Futhi ngethemba ukuthi sizohamba phambili.

Ngakho-ke muhle ekuthatheni isabelomali sezempi, kodwa uBernie ubonakala engazimisele kangako ekuhoxiseni amaphoyisa. Uphume ngamandla ngokumelene nanoma yisiphi isinyathelo sokuqeda amaphoyisa. Futhi nakuba etshele i-New Yorker muva nje ukuthi, yebo, ufuna, “ukuchaza kabusha lokho okwenziwa iminyango yamaphoyisa,” okuyinto enhle, akabonakali efuna ukwehlisa isabelomali samaphoyisa nganoma iyiphi indlela enengqondo.

MD: Yebo, ngicabanga ukuthi indlela enze ngayo kulokhu iwukusho ukuthi sidinga ukucacisa kabusha iqhaza lamaphoyisa emiphakathini yethu. Impela uye wayisekela kakhulu imibukiso; uyakubona ukuthi lezi zishoshovu nababhikishi emgwaqweni badlale indima ebaluleke kakhulu ekugxiliseni ukunaka kwezwe enkingeni enzima kakhulu yodlame lwamaphoyisa kanye nodlame lokucwasa kanye nokubusa kwabamhlophe izwe lethu elisabhekene nalo.

Ngakho-ke ubeke uchungechunge lweziphakamiso ezingashintsha indlela amaphoyisa ethu asebenza ngayo emphakathini wawo: ukwengamela umphakathi okwengeziwe, uyazi, ukuqaphela nokuklomelisa imiphakathi kanye nokubuyisela imali, empeleni, amabutho amaphoyisa abonise ukuthi anenkinga yangempela ngokuhlukunyezwa. . Ngakho-ke nakuba engakayamukeli yonke inhloso yokuhoxisa amaphoyisa ngemali, ngicabanga ukuthi ukubekile, ubeke esinye seziphakamiso ezinkulu nezinesibindi mayelana nendlela yokuchaza kabusha ngokugcwele okwenziwa amaphoyisa.

MH: Ubalule abaholi. Sekusele izinyanga ezimbalwa ukuthi sibe nokhetho lukamongameli oluyingqophamlando. Oqokwe kuDemocratic Alliance owagunyazwa uBernie Sanders, uBernie Sanders ambiza ngomngane wakhe, uJoe Biden, ungomunye woklebe abaziwa kakhulu beDemocratic Party futhi asebenesikhathi eside bekhona. Ukhulume nge-blob ngaphambili; Ngicabanga ukuthi uJoe Biden uyikhadi eliphethe ilungu le-blob. Uyakholwa ukuthi sizobona noma yiluphi ushintsho kuMongameli uBiden, uma kukhulunywa ngenqubomgomo yezangaphandle yezempi, yePentagon-yokuqala uma kukhulunywa ngobukhona bezempi baseMelika emhlabeni jikelele?

MD: Hhayi-ke, ngicabanga ukuthi sikubonile umnyakazo othile ovela eBiden.

Ngisho, okokuqala, njengoba usho, yebo. Ngisho, Biden, uyazi, siyayazi imibono yakhe ngenqubomgomo yezangaphandle ebuyela emuva amashumi eminyaka amaningi. Wasekela iMpi yase-Iraq; USenator Sanders ukugxekile lokho. Kepha ngibona kufanele ukuthi kubhekwe ukuthi kube nezimo ezithile, ikakhulukazi ngesikhathi sokuphatha kuka-Obama, lapho iBiden yayiyizwi lokuzibamba, noma ngabe sikhuluma ngodlame lwase-Afghanistan ekuqaleni kobumongameli baka-Obama, ukungenelela kweLibya - okuyinto yaphenduka umsebenzi wokushintsha umbuso, okwadala inhlekelele enkulu eLibya, namanje esaba nomthelela esifundeni.

Ngakho-ke yebo, ngicabanga - lalela, angifuni - angizukuyigcoba. Ngicabanga ukuthi i-Biden i-hawkish kakhulu kunalokho abaningi abathuthukayo abangathanda ukuyibona. Kodwa futhi ungumuntu engicabanga ukuthi ubambe iqhaza kule ngxoxo eyenzeka eqenjini, futhi ngokubanzi, ezweni. Ithimba lakhe selikutshelile ngasese nasesidlangalaleni ukuthi lifuna ukukhuluma namaphimbo anenqubekela phambili mayelana nenqubomgomo yezangaphandle. Futhi-ke, uyazi, uSenator Sanders -

MH: Ingabe baye bafinyelela kuwe?

MD: Sesixoxile, yebo. Sikhuluma kahle njalo. Futhi ngiyakuthokozela lokho.

Ngakho futhi, ngingathanda ukubona ukunyakaza okwengeziwe kwezinye zalezi zinqubomgomo. Ngicabanga ukuthi kufanele sazi lapho uBiden esethuthele khona. Ngicabanga, ngokwesibonelo, ukuzibophezela ngasohlangothini lukaBiden - kanye nakubo bonke abangenele ukhetho lweDemocratic Alliance, ngendlela - ukuphinde bajoyine Isivumelwano Senuzi sase-Iran futhi babone ukuxoxisana okubanzi ne-Iran njengendlela yokunciphisa ukungezwani esifundeni, esikhundleni salokho. ngokwenza lokho uTrump akwenzayo, okuvele kusekele amaSaudis eqhulwini kule ngxabano yesifunda ne-Iran. Ngicabanga ukuthi kufanele sikubone lokho njengokuhle ngempela. Kodwa sidinga ukuqhubeka nokusebenza futhi siqhubeke nokuphusha.

MH: Impela kube khona uguquko ukusuka kuBiden eSaudi Arabia. Ngicabanga ukuthi wambiza ngomuntu oyedwa kwenye yezinkulumo-mpikiswano.

MD: Kulungile. Kulungile.

MH: Futhi amaDemocrat amaningi athuthele eSaudi Arabia. Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi abantu abafana noBernie Sanders, umphathi wakho, kanye noChris Murphy, uSenator waseConnecticut, babambe iqhaza eliqinile ekususeni amaDemocrat akhethiwe eSaudi Arabia - kude neSaudi Arabia - okuyinto enhle.

UBiden kuwebhusayithi yakhe yomkhankaso uthi “phela izimpi zaphakade” futhi ukhuluma nangokuletha iningi lamasosha ekhaya, okuyizinto ezinhle ngokubona kwami. Kepha futhi uthi kuwebhusayithi yakhe: “Sinamasosha aqine kakhulu emhlabeni - futhi njengomongameli, uBiden uzoqinisekisa ukuthi kuhlala kunjalo. Abaphathi beBiden bazokwenza ukutshalwa kwezimali okudingekayo ukuhlomisa amasosha ethu ngezinselelo zekhulu leminyaka elizayo, hhayi elokugcina. "

Ingabe akuzwakali sengathi uMongameli uBiden uzokwenza okuthile ngempela ngalesi sabelomali sezokuvikela sase-US? Njengoba ushilo, uBernie Sanders ufuna ukusikwa ngamaphesenti ayi-10, Ngabe yilolo hlobo lwento uBiden azosala ngemuva? Ngikuthola kunzima ukukukholelwa lokho.

MD: Hhayi-ke angazi. Kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi ukuphela kwempendulo wukuqhubeka nokubacindezela kukho - ukukhuluma nabo, ngibanike imibono ngalokhu. Kodwa futhi, lapho uBiden ekhuluma ngezinselelo zekhulunyaka lama-21, leyo yinkulumompikiswano okudingeka sibe kuyo. Yiziphi lezo zinselelo futhi yini ngempela edingwa yiMelika ukusiza ukuqhubekisela phambili ukuphepha nokuchuma kwabantu baseMelika njengoba sihamba. kule nkathi entsha?

Ngisho ukuthi sisemzuzwini, futhi ngicabanga ukuthi lokhu kuyakhuthaza ngempela. Ngisho, okokuqala ngqa empilweni yami, ngicabanga ukuthi, amandla amaningi - iningi lamandla esiwabona emibuzweni emayelana nenqubomgomo yezangaphandle yaseMelika, kanye nokuvikeleka kwezwe laseMelika, aqhamuka Kwesokunxele.

Sibona inqwaba yamaqembu namazwi amasha abekela inselelo eminye yale mibono, futhi ethi: Lalela, sidinga ukucabanga kabusha ngendlela esibukeka ngayo ukuthi sibeka ukuphepha kwethu, futhi ngicabanga ukuthi ubhubhane ukugcizelele lokho ngempela. indlela ebaluleke ngempela, njengoba ngishilo, ukukhombisa ukuthi konke, uyazi, amakhulu ezigidigidi zamaRandi ebesichitha kulezi, lezi zinhlelo zezikhali, azibagcinanga abantu baseMelika bephephile kuleli gciwane. Futhi lokho kuzodinga umbono oqinile walokho esikushoyo ngokuvikeleka kwethu.

MH: Ngakho kulelo nothi, Matt, umbuzo wokugcina. Kwakukhona isitikha esidala se-Women's International League for Peace and Freedom, emuva ngeMpi Yomshoshaphansi emuva ezinsukwini ezandulela ukusabalala kwegciwane, ngaphambi kwama-memes, kodwa kwakuyisitika esidume kakhulu.

Futhi ifundeka futhi ngicaphuna, "kuzoba usuku oluhle lapho izikole zethu zithola yonke imali eziyidingayo futhi nombutho wezomoya kufanele ubambe indali yokubhaka ukuze uthenge ibhomu."

MD: [Ehleka.] Yebo.

MH: Ingabe sesiseduze nalolo suku? Ucabanga ukuthi - ucabanga ukuthi sizobona usuku olunjalo phakathi nokuphila kwethu?

MD: Mhlawumbe akuyona indali yokubhaka, nakuba ngingathanda ukubona ezinye zezinto abangazenza. Mhlawumbe kungaba mnandi kakhulu.

MH: [Ehleka.]

MD: Kodwa cha, kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi jikelele - lowo muzwa ojwayelekile ubaluleke ngempela. Kungumqondo, kukhuluma ngezinto ezibalulekile: Ngabe sitshala imali eyanele emfundweni yezingane zethu? Ingabe sitshala imali eyanele ekunakekelweni kwezempilo, ezezindlu, emisebenzini? Ngabe siyaqinisekisa ukuthi abantu baseMelika abangeni ekuqoqweni uma, lapho behlaselwa, niyazi, izimo eziphuthumayo zezokwelapha ezingalindelekile njengomdlavuza noma ezinye izinto ezinjalo?

Ngakho futhi, lena impikiswano ebaluleke ngempela esinayo manje mayelana nokuthi yiziphi izinto eziza kuqala kithi? Ingabe siyabanakekela abantu bethu, njengoba nje sibona ukukhathazeka kwangempela ngokulondeka?

MH: Matt, kuzofanele sikushiye lapho. Ngiyabonga kakhulu ngokuhlanganyela nami ku-Deconstructed.

MD: Kuhle ukuba lapha. Ngiyabonga, Mehdi.

MH: Lowo kwakunguMat Duss, umeluleki omkhulu wenqubomgomo yezangaphandle kuBernie Sanders, ekhuluma ngesabelomali sePentagon kanye nesidingo sokunqamula izimpi ezingapheli kanye noxhaso lwalezo zimpi ezingapheli. Futhi bheka, uma usekela ukukhishwa kwemali kwamaphoyisa, kufanele ngempela ukweseke ukubuyisela amasosha izimali. Zombili ziyahambisana.

[I-interlude yomculo.]

MH: Lowo umbukiso wethu! I-Deconstructed iwukukhiqizwa kwe-First Look Media kanye ne-Intercept. Umdidiyeli wethu nguZach Young. Uhlelo luxutshwe nguBryan Pugh. Umculo wethu oyindikimba uqanjwe nguBart Warshaw. U-Betsy Reed ungumhleli omkhulu we-The Intercept.

Futhi nginguMehdi Hasan. Ungangilandela ku-Twitter @mehdirhasan. Uma ungakakwenzi, sicela ubhalisele uhlelo ukuze uluzwe masonto onke. Iya kokuthi theintercept.com/deconstructed ukuze ubhalise usuka ku-podcast yesikhulumi ozikhethele sona: i-iPhone, i-Android, noma yini. Uma usubhalisile kakade, sicela usishiyele isilinganiso noma isibuyekezo - kusiza abantu bathole umbukiso. Futhi uma ufuna ukusinikeza impendulo, sithumele i-imeyili ku-Podcasts@theintercept.com. Ngiyabonga kakhulu!

Sobonana ngesonto elizayo.