nguReiner Braun, I-International Peace Bureau, Aprili 11, 2022
Ngaba ungazazisa kungekudala?
Oleg Bodrov: Ndingu-Oleg Bodrov, isazi sefiziksi, isazi ngendalo kunye noSihlalo weBhunga loLuntu loLwandle oluMazantsi eGulf of Finland, eSt. Ukukhuselwa kwendalo, ukhuseleko lwenyukliya kunye nokukhuthaza uxolo kube yeyona migaqo iphambili yomsebenzi wam kule minyaka ingama-40 idlulileyo. Namhlanje, ndiziva ndiyinxalenye yeUkraine: umfazi wam unesiqingatha saseUkraine; utata wakhe ngowaseMariupol. Abahlobo bam kunye noogxa bam zi-ecologists ezivela eKiev, Kharkiv, Dnipro, Konotop, Lviv. Ndingumqaphi, kwiindawo ezinyukayo ndadityaniswa ngentambo yokhuseleko kunye no-Anna P. waseKharkov. Utata, owayenenxaxheba kwiMfazwe Yehlabathi Yesibini, wenzakala ngoJanuwari 1945 waza wanyangwa kwisibhedlele saseDnepropetrovsk.
UYuri Sheliazhenko: Igama lam nguYurii Sheliazhenko, ndingumphandi woxolo, utitshala kunye nomlweli waseUkraine. Iinkalo zam zobungcali kulawulo longquzulwano, ithiyori yezomthetho nezopolitiko kunye nembali. Ngaphaya koko, ndingunobhala olawulayo we-Ukrainian Pacifist Movement kunye nelungu leBhodi ye-European Bureau for Conscientious Objection (EBCO) kunye World BEYOND War (WBW).
Unganceda uchaze indlela oyibona ngayo eyona meko?
OB: Isigqibo malunga nokusebenza komkhosi ngokuchasene neUkraine senziwe nguMongameli waseRashiya. Ngelo xesha, abemi baseRashiya, begweba ngeengxelo zeendaba ezizimeleyo, bakholelwa ukuba imfazwe ne-Ukraine yayingenakwenzeka!
Kwakutheni ukuze kwenzeke oku? Kule minyaka isibhozo idlulileyo, ipropaganda echasene ne-Ukrainian ibisasazwa mihla le kuwo onke amajelo omabonwakude aseRussia. Bathetha ngobuthathaka kunye nokungathandwa kwabaongameli base-Ukraine, ama-Nationalists avimbela ukuhlangana kunye neRashiya, umnqweno we-Ukraine wokujoyina i-EU kunye ne-NATO. I-Ukraine ithathwa nguMongameli waseRashiya njengommandla ngokwembali woBukhosi baseRashiya. Uhlaselo lwaseUkraine, ukongeza ekufeni kwamawakawaka abantu, lonyuse imingcipheko engalunganga yehlabathi. Imisebenzi yomkhosi iqhutywa kwintsimi enezixhobo zamandla enyukliya. Ukubetheka kwamagobolondo ngempazamo kwiziko lamandla enyukliya kuyingozi ngakumbi kunokusebenzisa izixhobo zeathom.
YS: Uhlaselo olungekho mthethweni lwaseRussia ukuya eUkraine yinxalenye yembali ende yobudlelwane kunye nobutshaba phakathi kwezizwe zombini, kwaye ikwayinxalenye yongquzulwano olude lwehlabathi phakathi kweNtshona neMpuma. Ukuyiqonda ngokupheleleyo, kufuneka sikhumbule i-colonialism, impiriyali, imfazwe ebandayo, i-hegemony "neoliberal" kunye nokunyuka kwe-wannabe illiberal hegemons.
Ukuthetha ngeRussia ngokuchasene neUkraine, eyona nto ibalulekileyo ekufuneka uyiqonde malunga nalo mlo ungamanyala phakathi kwamandla ama-impiriyali amandulo kunye nolawulo lobuzwe lwakudala luphawu lwakudala lwezopolitiko kunye neenkcubeko zomkhosi: bobabini babizelwe emkhosini kunye nenkqubo yokukhuliswa komkhosi wokuthand' izwe endaweni yemfundo yoluntu. Yiyo loo nto abaqhubi bemfazwe kumacala omabini bebizana ngamaNazi. Ngokwengqondo, basaphila kwihlabathi le-USSR "Imfazwe Enkulu yePatriotic" okanye "intshukumo yenkululeko yaseUkraine" kwaye bakholelwa ukuba abantu kufuneka bahlangane kunye nomphathi wabo ophakamileyo ukuze batyumze utshaba lwabo olukhoyo, aba Hitler-ites okanye abangoStalin abangcono, kwindima yabo. abathi ngokumangalisayo babone abantu abangabamelwane.
Ngaba kukho naziphi na iinkcukacha kule ngxabano apho uluntu lwaseNtshona lungazi okanye lungazi kakuhle kakhulu?
YS: Ewe, ngokuqinisekileyo. I-diaspora yaseUkraine eMelika inyuke kakhulu emva kweemfazwe ezimbini zehlabathi. US kunye nezinye iingqondo zaseNtshona ngexesha lemfazwe ebandayo zaqesha iiarhente kule diaspora ukuba zisebenzise iimvakalelo zobuzwe zokukhuthaza ukwahlukana e-USSR, kwaye abanye abantu baseUkraine baba zizityebi okanye benza imisebenzi e-US kunye nezopolitiko zaseCanada kunye nomkhosi, ngaloo ndlela i-lobby enamandla yaseUkraine yavela kunye namaqhina. ukuya eUkraine kunye namabhongo ongenelelo. Xa i-USSR yawa kwaye i-Ukraine yafumana inkululeko, i-Western diaspora yathatha inxaxheba ekwakhiweni kwesizwe.
Ngaba kukho imisebenzi echasene nemfazwe eRashiya kwaye ukuba kunjalo, ikhangeleka njani?
OB: Izenzo zokuchasa imfazwe zaqhutywa eSt. Petersburg, eMoscow, nakwizixeko ezininzi ezikhulu zaseRashiya. Abantu abangamawakawaka basuka baphuma besiya ezitratweni bevakalisa ukungavisisani kwabo. Udidi oludumileyo lwabathathi-nxaxheba ngabantu abatsha. Abafundi abangaphezu kwama-7,500, abasebenzi kunye nabaphumelele kwiYunivesithi yaseRussia yaseLomonosov yaseMoscow yakudala basayine uxwebhu lwezikhalazo oluchasene nemfazwe. Abafundi bafuna ukuzibona beyinxalenye yelizwe elikhululekileyo ledemokhrasi, abanokuthi bahluthwe ngenxa yemigaqo-nkqubo yokuzahlula kukamongameli. Abasemagunyeni bathi iRussia inezixhobo eziyimfuneko kubomi kunye nezixhobo zeathom eziya kubakhusela, naphantsi kweemeko zokwahlukana, kwihlabathi liphela. Ngaphezu kwe-1 yezigidi ezingama-220 amawaka abantu baseRashiya basayine isikhalazo esithi "HAYI IMFAZWE". Iipikethi ezilodwa “NGOKUXHASA IZIXHOBO ZENYUCLEAR” kunye “NOKUCHASANA NEMFAZWE YEGAZI” zibanjwa mihla le eSt. Petersburg nakwezinye izixeko zaseRashiya. Kwangaxeshanye, abasebenzi beZiko leAtomic Energy ebizwa ngokuba yiKurchatov eMoscow "basixhasa ngokupheleleyo isigqibo sikaMongameli weRussian Federation sokuqhuba umsebenzi okhethekileyo wasemkhosini" kwintsimi yaseUkraine. Kwaye oku akukuphela komzekelo wenkxaso yobundlobongela. Mna kunye nabalingane bam kwintlangano yendalo kunye noxolo siqinisekile ukuba ikamva lethu laphukile eRashiya naseUkraine.
Ngaba uxolo neRashiya yingxaki eUkraine ngoku?
YS: Ewe, lo ngumba ngaphandle kwamathandabuzo. Umongameli uZelenskyy wonyulwa ngo-2019 ngenxa yezithembiso zakhe zokumisa imfazwe kunye nokuthethathethana ngoxolo, kodwa wophula ezi zithembiso kwaye waqala ukucinezela amajelo eendaba aseRussia kunye nenkcaso e-Ukraine, ehlanganisa bonke abantu ukuba balwe neRussia. Oku kwangqamana nokuqiniswa koncedo lwezomkhosi lwe-NATO kunye noqeqesho lwenyukliya. U-Putin wasungula izixhobo zakhe zenyukliya kwaye wacela iNtshona ukuba iqinisekise iziqinisekiso zokhuseleko, okokuqala kuyo yonke into engahambelani ne-Ukraine. Endaweni yokunika iziqinisekiso ezinjalo, iNtshona yaxhasa ukusebenza komkhosi waseUkraine eDonbass apho ukwaphulwa kokupheliswa kokudubula kwanda kwaye kwiintsuku ezingaphambi kohlaselo lwaseRussia abantu babulawa kwaye benzakaliswa phantse yonke imihla kumacala omabini, kulawulwa ngurhulumente nangaphandle kukarhulumente. iindawo.
Ingakanani inkcaso echasene noxolo kunye nezenzo ezingenabundlobongela kwilizwe lakho?
OB: ERashiya, zonke imidiya yedemokhrasi ezizimeleyo zivaliwe kwaye zayeka ukusebenza. Ipropaganda yemfazwe iqhutyelwa kuwo onke amajelo omabonwakude karhulumente. I-Facebook kunye ne-Instagram zivaliwe. Kwakamsinyane nje emva kokuqalisa kwemfazwe, kwamkelwa imithetho emitsha enxamnye nezomgunyathi “kunye nokujongelwa phantsi kwemikhosi exhobileyo yaseRashiya eqhuba uphulo olukhethekileyo eUkraine.” Umgunyathi zizo naziphi na izimvo ezivakaliswe esidlangalaleni eziphikisana noko kuthethwa kumajelo eendaba asemthethweni. Izohlwayo zibonelelwa ngesohlwayo esikhulu samashumi amawaka eeruble, ukuya entolongweni ukuya kuthi ga kwiminyaka eyi-15. UMongameli uvakalise ukulwa "nabangcatshi belizwe" abathintela ukuphunyezwa kwezicwangciso zakhe zase-Ukraine. I-Ofisi yoBulungisa baseRussian Federation iyaqhubeka nokunika imo "ye-arhente yangaphandle" kwimibutho yendalo kunye namalungelo oluntu esebenzisana namaqabane avela kwamanye amazwe. Ukoyika ingcinezelo kuba yinto ebalulekileyo yobomi eRashiya.
Idemokhrasi ibonakala njani eUkraine? Ngaba kukho naziphi na iindlela ezifanayo?
YS: Nge-24 kaFebruwari, 2022 uPutin waqala ukuhlasela kwakhe okukhohlakeleyo kunye nokungekho mthethweni okujoliswe kuko, njengoko esitsho, e-denazification kunye nokuchithwa kwe-Ukraine. Ngenxa yoko, zombini iRashiya neUkraine zibonakala zinomkhosi ongakumbi kwaye ziya zifana namaNazi, yaye akukho mntu uzimisele ukuyitshintsha. Ukulawula ii-autocrats kunye namaqela abo kumazwe omabini afumana inzuzo emfazweni, amandla abo ayomelela kwaye maninzi amathuba okufumana inzuzo. Ookhetshe baseRashiya bayaxhamla ekubekweni bodwa kweRashiya kuba oko kuthetha ukuhlanganisana emkhosini kunye nazo zonke izixhobo zoluntu zisezandleni zabo. ENtshona, indawo yemveliso yomkhosi yonakalise urhulumente kunye noluntu, abarhwebi bokufa bafumana inzuzo enkulu kuncedo lomkhosi ukuya eUkraine: iThales (umthengisi wemijukujelwa yeJavelin ukuya eUkraine), uRaytheon (umthengisi wemijukujelwa yeStinger) kunye noLockheed Martin (ukusasazwa kweejethi. ) baye bafumana ukonyuka okukhulu kwingeniso nakwixabiso lemarike yemasheya. Kwaye bafuna ukufumana inzuzo engakumbi ngokubulala nokutshabalalisa.
Ulindele ntoni kwiintshukumo zoxolo emhlabeni nakubo bonke abantu abathanda uxolo?
OB: Kuyimfuneko ukuba abathathi-nxaxheba be "Movement for Peace" badibanise kunye nabagcini bendalo, abalwela amalungelo oluntu, ukulwa nemfazwe, i-anti-nuclear kunye neminye imibutho ethanda uxolo. Iingxabano kufuneka zisonjululwe ngothethathethwano, hayi imfazwe. UXOLO lulungile kuthi sonke!
Yintoni umntu anokuyenza ukuze kubekho uxolo xa ilizwe lakhe lihlaselwa?
YS: Ewe, okokuqala i-pacifist kufuneka ihlale i-pacifist, iqhubeke nokuphendula kubundlobongela kunye nokucinga okungenabugwenxa kunye nezenzo. Kuya kufuneka usebenzise yonke imizamo yokufuna kunye nokuxhasa izisombululo zoxolo, ukuxhathisa ukunyuka, ukukhathalela ukhuseleko lwabanye kunye nawe. Bahlobo abathandekayo, enkosi ngokukhathalela imeko yaseUkraine. Masakhe kunye ihlabathi elingcono elingenamikhosi kunye nemida yoxolo kunye nolonwabo oluqhelekileyo loluntu.
Udliwano-ndlebe luqhutywe nguReiner Braun (ngeendlela zombane).
