Tariq Ali: Mhosva dzehugandanga dzakapokana neaimbove Prime Minister wePakistan Imran Khan "Zviri Kutyisa"

AMY MURUME AKANAKA: Ichi chi Dememocracy Zvino!, democracynow.org, Nhoroondo Yehondo uye Rugare. Ndiri Amy Goodman, naJuan González.

Isu tinotendeuka zvino kuti titarise dambudziko rezvematongerwo enyika muPakistan, uko aimbove Prime Minister Imran Khan akapomerwa mhosva pasi pePakistan Anti-Terrorism Act. Ndiko kuwedzera kwazvino pakati penyika yePakistani naKhan, uyo anoramba aine mukurumbira zvichitevera kudzingwa kwake pachigaro muna Kubvumbi mune zvaakatsanangura senzira ye "shanduko yehurumende inotsigirwa neUS." Khan akaenderera mberi nekuita misangano mikuru muPakistan. Asi mukupera kwesvondo, zviremera zvePakistan zvakarambidza nhepfenyuro dzeTV kutepfenyura kutaura kwake live. Zvino, Muvhuro, mapurisa akamumhan'arira mhosva dzekurwisa hugandanga mushure mekunge ataura achipomera mapurisa kurwadzisa mumwe wevabatsiri vake wepedyo akavharirwa mhosva yekupandukira hurumende. Nguva pfupi yainge yapomerwa mhosva, mazana evatsigiri vaKhan akaungana panze pemba yake kuti mapurisa asamusunge. Gare gare Muvhuro, Khan akapindura kumhosva mukutaura muIslamabad.

IMRAN KHAN: [yakashandurwa] Ndakanga ndashevedzera kuti ndivatorere matanho emutemo, mapurisa uye mutongi wedare, uye hurumende yakanyora nyaya yougandanga yaipomerwa kwandiri. Pakutanga, vanoita zvisizvo. Kana tichiti tichatora matanho emutemo, vanonyoresa mhosva yangu uye vanonditorera gwaro rekuti vandisungise. Izvi zvinoratidzei? Munyika yedu hamuna mutemo wemutemo.

AMY MURUME AKANAKA: Saka, takabatanidzwa muLondon ikozvino naTariq Ali, muPakistani weBritish munyori wenhoroondo, muratidziri, mugadziri wemafirimu, mukomiti yekunyora ye Ongororo Yatsva Yokudzoka, munyori wemabhuku akawanda, kusanganisira Kumukira muPakistan: Maitiro ekudzikisa hudzvinyiriri, iyo yakabuda makore mashoma apfuura, uye Pakistan Inogona Kupona Here? Bhuku rake razvino, Winston Churchill: Nguva Yake, Mhosva Dzake, tichataura pane imwe show. Uye tiri kutaurawo pamusoro peizvi pakati pemafashama makuru ePakistan, uye tichasvika kwazviri muminiti.

Tariq, taura nezve kukosha kwemhosva dzehugandanga dzakapomerwa Imran Khan, uyo akadzingwa mune yaanoti shanduko yehurumende inotsigirwa neUS.

TARIQ ALI: Zvakanaka, Imran akanga atsamwisa United States. Hapana mubvunzo zvachose pamusoro pazvo. Akataura - pakadonha Kabul, akataura pachena, semutungamiri, kuti maAmerican akaita bongozozo guru munyika iyoyo, uye izvi ndizvo mhedzisiro. Zvino, mushure mehondo yeUkraine yakatangwa naPutin, Imran aive muMoscow zuva iroro. Haana kutaura nezvazvo, asi akangoshamisika kuti zvakaitika panguva yekushanya kwake mudunhu. Asi akaramba kutsigira zvirango kuRussia, uye akashoropodzwa nekuda kweizvozvo, ndokupindura kuti, "India haisi kutsigira zvirango. Sei usingavashore? China haisi kuvatsigira. Ruzhinji rwenyika, Third World, havasi kuvatsigira. Sei uchindivenga?" Asi akange ave chigumbu. Kana United States yakaisa yakawandisa mazviri, isu hatizive. Asi chokwadi, mauto, ayo ane masimba muPakistani zvematongerwo enyika, anofanira kunge akafunga kuti kufadza United States, zviri nani kumubvisa. Uye hapana mubvunzo kuti pasina tsigiro yemauto pakubviswa kwake, angadai asina kudzingwa.

Zvino, zvavaifunga kana zvavaifunga ndezvekuti Imran aizorasikirwa nemukurumbira wese, nekuti hurumende yake yakanga yakanganisa zvakawanda. Paiva nekutaura nezvehuori nemudzimai wake, nezvimwewo, nezvimwewo. Zvadaro chimwe chinhu chakaitika muna July chakazunungusa kugadzwa, iyo iyo mupurovhinzi ine vanhu vakawanda uye yakakosha munyika, inokosha maererano nemasimba, Punjab, paiva ne20. Sarudzo dzevamiriri veparamende, uye Imran akakunda gumi neshanu. Angadai akahwina mamwe maviri, dai bato rake rakarongeka zviri nani. Saka zvairatidza kuti tsigiro kwaari, kana yanyungudika, yaidzoka, nokuti vanhu vakanga vangokatyamadzwa nehurumende yakanga yamutsiva. Uye izvo, ndinofunga, zvakapawo Imran tariro huru yekuti anogona kukunda musarudzo dzinotevera zviri nyore. Uye akaenda parwendo rukuru rwenyika, umo maive nemativi maviri: Mauto akaisa vezvematongerwo enyika vane uori musimba, uye United States yakaronga shanduko yehurumende. Uye imwe yenziyo huru pakuratidzira uku, kwaive nemazana ezviuru zvevanhu, yaive “Uyo ari shamwari yeUnited States mutengesi. Mutengesi.” Ndirwo rwaiva rwiyo rukuru uye rwiyo rwakakurumbira zvikuru panguva iyoyo. Saka, haana kupokana, akazvivaka zvakare.

Uye ndinofunga kuti chiitiko ichocho, Amy, muna Chikunguru, chekuratidza rutsigiro rwakakurumbira kuburikidza nesarudzo, kana asiri musimba, zvakavanetsa, saka vanga vachimurwisa. Kumusunga pasi pemitemo yekurwisa hugandanga kunotyisa zvechokwadi. Akarwisa vatongi kare. Akanga achirwisa vamwe vevakuru vematare mukutaura kwake rimwe zuva. Kana muchida kumusunga mune — munogona kumupomera mhosva yekuzvidza dare, saka aende kunorwa izvozvo, toona anokunda, uye dare ripi. Asi pane kudaro, vakamusunga pasi pemitemo yehugandanga, izvo zviri kunetsa, kuti kana chinangwa chiri chekuti asapinde musarudzo dzinotevera nekuda kwenyaya dzinonzi dzehugandanga, zvokonzera mhirizhonga munyika. Haana kunyanya kunetseka panguva ino, kubva pane zvandinogona kuunganidza.

JOHANI GONZÁLEZ: Uye, Tariq, ndaida kukubvunza - nekuratidzira kukuru kwamuka vachimutsigira, ipfungwa yako here kuti kunyangwe vanhu vangangove vaipikisa Imran Khan vari kubatana kumashure kwake, vachipokana nevezvematongerwo enyika nevechiuto. nyika? Mushure mezvose - uye mukana wekuenderera mberi nekuvhiringidzika munyika inova nyika yechishanu pakukura pasirese maererano nehuwandu hwevanhu.

TARIQ ALI: Ehe, ndinofunga vari kunetseka. Uye ndinofunga Imran akaita chirevo chakakosha mukutaura kwake kupera kwesvondo. Akati, “Usakanganwa. Inzwai mabhero ari kurira muSri Lanka,” uko kwakaitika mhirizhonga yakawanda yakatora muzinda wemutungamiri wenyika zvikaita kuti mutungamiri wenyika atize uye shanduko shoma dzakatanga. Vati, "Hatisi kudzika nenzira iyoyo, asi tinoda sarudzo nyowani, uye tinodzida nekukurumidza." Zvino pavakatora masimba, hurumende itsva yakati tichaedza kuita sarudzo munaGunyana kana Gumiguru. Ikozvino vakamisa sarudzo idzi kusvika Nyamavhuvhu gore rinouya.

Uye, Juan, iwe unofanirwa kunzwisisa kuti panguva imwe chete, hurumende itsva inobata ne IMF zvareva kukwira kukuru kwemitengo munyika. Pari zvino pane vanhu vakawanda vasingakwanise kutenga chikafu chenyika. Zvave kudhura zvakanyanya. Mutengo wegasi wakwira. Saka, kune varombo, avo vatova nemagetsi mashoma, inhamo yakakwana. Uye vanhu, hongu, vanopomera hurumende nyowani, nekuti iyi ndiyo hurumende yakaita chibvumirano ne IMF, uye mamiriro ezveupfumi munyika ane ngozi zvikuru. Uye izvi zvakawedzerawo mukurumbira waImran, pasina kupokana. Ndichireva kuti nyaya irikuti dai paive nesarudzo yaizoitwa mukati memwedzi mina yaitevera, aizotsvaira nyika.

JOHANI GONZÁLEZ: Uye wataura nezve basa remauto mune zvematongerwo enyika ePakistan. Chii chaive hukama hwemauto naImran dambudziko iri risati ratanga, asati adzingwa semutungamiri wehurumende?

TARIQ ALI: Saka vakamutendera kuti auye pakutonga. Hapana mubvunzo pamusoro pazvo. Ndinoreva, zvingava zvinonyadzisa kwaari uye kwavari iye zvino mumamiriro ezvinhu aripo munyika, asi hapana mubvunzo kuti mauto akanga ari shure kwake paakatanga kutonga. Asi sevamwe vezvematongerwo enyika, akashandisa simba rake akazvivakira hwaro hombe munyika, iyo yaimbove nehutongi, hutongi hwePakhtunkhwa, hurumende, hurumende yakasarudzwa kuchamhembe kwenyika, kumuganhu ne. Afghanistan, asi ikozvino yave kupararira, kunyangwe kune dzimwe nzvimbo dzeKarachi. Uye iyo Punjab ikozvino inoita kunge nhare, imwe yePTI's - Imran's bato - nhare huru.

Saka, mauto nevezvematongerwo enyika havasi kuita nenzira yavo. Ndinoreva, vaifunga kuti vaigona kugadzira kugadzikana kutsva nehama dzaSharif. Zvino, chii chinonakidza, Juan, uye hachisati chambotaurwa ndechekuti pamberi paShehbaz Sharif, munoziva, achipinda neshungu dzaImran, pakanga paine kukakavara, ndinoudzwa, pakati pehama mbiri idzi. Mukoma wake, Nawaz Sharif, aimbove mutungamiriri wehurumende, ari kuBritain, anonzi ari kurwara, nekuti akaburitswa mutirongo achipomerwa mhosva yehuori kuti aende kunovhiyiwa kuBritain — ava nemakore ari muno — aipikisa Shehbaz. kuuya kuzotora chigaro. Iye akati, "Zvirinani kuenda kusarudzo dzekukurumidza asi Imran isingafarirwe, uye tinogona kuhwina izvozvo, tozove nemakore pamberi." Asi munun'una wake akamukunda kana zvakadaro, zvisinei vanogadzirisa nharo idzi, uye vakati, "Kwete, kwete, tinoda hurumende itsva ikozvino. Zvinhu hazvina kunaka.” Zvakanaka, ichi ndicho chigumisiro.

AMY MURUME AKANAKA: Ndanga ndichidawo kukubvunza nezvemafashamo anotyisa ari kuitika muPakistan, Tariq. Mumwedzi miviri yadarika, kunaya kwemvura zhinji kwakakonzera kufa kwevanhu vangangosvika mazana masere, mafashamo achikuvadza dzimba dzinopfuura 800. Heano mamwe emazwi evakapona mumafashamo.

AKBAR BALOCH: [yakaturikirwa] Tiri kushushikana zvikuru. Vakuru vedu vari kuti havasati vaona mvura nemafashamu akadai mumakore makumi matatu kusvika makumi matatu nemashanu apfuura. Aka ndekekutanga kuona mvura zhinji yakadai. Iye zvino tava kunetseka kuti, Mwari ngaasadaro, rudzi urwu rwemvura zhinji inogona kuenderera mberi mune ramangwana, nokuti mamiriro ekunze ari kuchinja. Saka isu tave kunyanya kutya pamusoro peizvi. Tiri kunetseka chaizvo.

SHER MOHAMMAD: [yakashandurwa] Mvura yakaparadza imba yangu. Zvipfuyo zvangu zvakaparara, minda yangu yaparara. Hupenyu hwedu chete ndihwo hwakaponeswa. Hapana chimwe chakasara. Ndinotenda Mwari, akaponesa hupenyu hwevana vangu. Iye zvino tave mutsitsi dzaAllah.

MOHAMMAD AMINE: [yakaturikirwa] Pfuma yangu, imba yangu, zvese zvaive zvakazara. Saka takavanda padenga rechikoro chehurumende kwemazuva matatu nousiku hutatu, vanhu vanenge 200 vaiva nevana. Takagara padenga mazuva matatu. Mvura payakaserera zvishoma, takazvuzvurudza vana kubva mumatope ndokufamba kwemazuva maviri kusvikira tasvika panzvimbo yakanaka.

AMY MURUME AKANAKA: Saka, inogona kunge iri pedyo nechuru chevanhu vakafa, makumi ezviuru akatiza. Kukosha kwekushanduka kwemamiriro ekunze muPakistan uye kuti zviri kukanganisa sei zvematongerwo enyika?

TARIQ ALI: Zviri kukanganisa zvematongerwo enyika pasi rose, Amy. Uye Pakistan, hongu, haina - haigone kusarudzika, uye haina mutsauko. Asi chinoita kuti Pakistan, kusvika pamwero wakati, isiyane ndeyekuti mafashama pachiyero ichi - ichokwadi zvakataurwa nemunhu - kuti havasati vamboonekwa, kwete mundangariro mhenyu. Kwave kune mafashamo, uye nguva dzose, asi kwete pachiyero ichi. Ndinoreva, kunyangwe guta reKarachi, rinova iro guta hombe remaindasitiri munyika, iro risati ramboona mafashama munguva yakapfuura, vaive - hafu yeguta yaive pasi pemvura, kusanganisira nzvimbo dzinogara vanhu vepakati nepakati. . Saka, kwave kuvhunduka kukuru.

Mubvunzo ndouyu - uye uyu mubvunzo unouya pese pakaitika kudengenyeka, mafashamo, njodzi yechisikigo: Nei Pakistan, hurumende dzakatevedzana, mauto nevagari vemo, vasina kukwanisa kuvaka nharaunda, mambure ekuchengetedza vanhuwo zvavo. vanhu? Yakanakira vapfumi nevane mari. Vanogona kutiza. Vanogona kubva munyika. Vanogona kuenda kuchipatara. Vane zvokudya zvakakwana. Asi kune ruzhinji rwenyika, izvi hazvisizvo. Uye izvi zvinongoratidzira dambudziko remagariro anga achidya kuPakistan, uye iro rave kuparadzwa zvakanyanya IMF zvinodiwa, izvo zviri kukanganisa nyika. Ndinoreva kuti kune kushaya zvokudya zvinovaka muviri mune dzimwe nzvimbo dzenyika. Mafashamo akaparadza Balochistan, imwe yenzvimbo dzine hurombo munyika uye dunhu risingatariswe kwemakumi emakore akawanda nehurumende dzakatevedzana. Saka, iwe unoziva, isu tinogara tichitaura uye kushanda pamusoro pedzimwe njodzi dzinongoitika dzoga kana njodzi dzekushanduka kwemamiriro ekunze, asi hurumende inofanirwa kumisa komisheni yekuronga kuti inyatso kuronga kuvaka chimiro chemagariro, hupfumi hwenyika. Izvi hazvingoshande kuPakistan, hongu. Dzimwe nyika zhinji dzinofanira kuita zvimwe chetezvo. Asi muPakistan, mamiriro ezvinhu akanyanya kuparara, nekuti vapfumi havana basa nazvo. Havana basa nazvo.

AMY MURUME AKANAKA: Tariq Ali, tisati taenda, tine masekondi makumi matatu, uye ini ndaida kukubvunza nezve mamiriro aJulian Assange. Isu takangoita chikamu pane magweta aJulian Assange nevatori venhau vachimhan'arira deginamajai uye Mike Pompeo pachake, wekutanga deginamajai mutungamiriri, wekushanda nekambani yeSpain mukubhugisa embassy, ​​videoing, audioing, kutora makombiyuta evashanyi nemafoni, kuadhaunirodha, kukanganisa mukana wemutengi-gweta. Izvi zvinogona here kumisa kuburitswa kwaJulian Assange, akatarisana nemhosva dzeespionage muUnited States?

TARIQ ALI: Zvakanaka, zvinofanirwa, Amy - ndiyo mhinduro yekutanga - nekuti yanga iri nyaya yezvematongerwo enyika kubva pakutanga. Iyo nyaya yekuti vakuru vakuru vakakurukura kuti vauraye Assange here kana kuti kwete, uye ndiyo nyika iyo hurumende yeBritain nevatongi, vachibatana, vari kumudzosera, vachiti uku hakusi kutonga kwezvematongerwo enyika, uku hakusi kushungurudzwa kwezvematongerwo enyika. , zvinokatyamadza zvikuru.

Zvakanaka, ndinovimba kuti kutongwa uku kunounza zvimwe chokwadi uye chimwe chiito chinotorwa, nekuti iyi extradition inofanirwa kumiswa. Tese tiri kuedza, asi vezvematongerwo enyika, kazhinji, uye kunyanya mapato maviri - uye mutungamiriri mutsva weAustralia musarudzo dzesarudzo akavimbisa kuti achaita chimwe chinhu. Iyo miniti yaanove mutungamiriri wehurumende, anongopinda muUnited States - hazvishamisi. Asi panguva ino, utano hwaJulian hwakaipa. Tiri kushushikana zvikuru nemabatirwo aari kuitwa mujeri. Haafanire kunge ari mujeri, kunyangwe achizoendeswa kunze kwenyika. Saka, ndinotarisira zvakanaka asi ndinotya zvakanyanya, nekuti munhu haafanire kuve nekunyepedzera nezvekutonga uku.

AMY MURUME AKANAKA: Tariq Ali, munyori wenhoroondo, muratidziri, mugadziri wemufirimu, munyori we Kumukira muPakistan: Maitiro ekudzikisa hudzvinyiriri. Bhuku rake razvino, Winston Churchill: Nguva Yake, Mhosva Dzake.