naReiner Braun, International Peace Bureau, April 11, 2022
Unogona here kuzvizivisa munguva pfupi?
Oleg Bodrov: Ndini Oleg Bodrov, nyanzvi yefizikisi, ecologist uye Sachigaro wePublic Council yeSouthern Shore yeGulf yeFinland, St. Kudzivirirwa kwezvakatipoteredza, kuchengetedzwa kwenyukireya uye kusimudzirwa kwerunyararo kwave kuri mafambiro makuru ebasa rangu kwemakore makumi mana apfuura. Nhasi, ndinonzwa sechikamu cheUkraine: mudzimai wangu hafu yeUkraine; baba vake vanobva kuMariupol. Shamwari dzangu uye vandinoshanda navo iecologists kubva kuKiev, Kharkiv, Dnipro, Konotop, Lviv. Ini ndiri mukwidza, pamikwidza ndakabatanidzwa netambo yekuchengetedza naAnna P. kubva kuKharkov. Baba vangu, vaiva muHondo Yenyika Yechipiri, vakakuvadzwa muna January 40 uye vakarapwa muchipatara muDnepropetrovsk.
Yurii Sheliazhenko: Zita rangu ndiYurii Sheliazhenko, ndiri muongorori werunyararo, mudzidzisi uye mumiriri kubva kuUkraine. Nzvimbo dzangu dzehunyanzvi kutonga kwekunetsana, mutemo nezvematongerwo enyika dzidziso uye nhoroondo. Uyezve, ndiri munyori mukuru weUkraine Pacifist Movement uye nhengo yeBhodi yeEuropean Bureau yeConscientious Objection (EBCO) pamwe chete. World BEYOND War (WBW).
Unogona here kutsanangura kuti unoona sei mamiriro chaiwo?
OB: Sarudzo yekushanda kwemauto kuUkraine yakaitwa neMutungamiriri weRussia. Panguva imwecheteyo, vagari veRussia, vachitonga nemishumo yakazvimirira yenhau, vaidavira kuti hondo neUkraine yakanga isingabviri!
Sei izvi zvakaitika? Kwemakore masere apfuura, propaganda inopokana neUkraine yakatepfenyurwa zuva nezuva pamatanho ese ehurumende eterevhizheni yeRussia. Vakataura pamusoro pekushaya simba uye kusadiwa kwevatungamiri veUkraine, vezvematongerwo enyika vachivhara kuwirirana neRussia, chido cheUkraine chekubatana neEU neNATO. Ukraine inoonekwa neMutungamiriri weRussia sedunhu nhoroondo chikamu cheMambo weRussia. Kupinda kweUkraine, kuwedzera pakufa kwezviuru zvevanhu, kwakawedzera njodzi dzepasi rose. Kushanda kwemauto kunoitwa panharaunda nemagetsi enyukireya. Kurohwa netsaona kwemabhomba muzvitsuwa zvemagetsi enyukireya kune ngozi kudarika kushandiswa kwezvombo zveatomu.
YS: Kupinda zvisiri pamutemo kweRussia kuUkraine chikamu chenhoroondo refu yehukama uye hutsinye pakati pemarudzi ese, uye zvakare chikamu chegakava repasi rose pakati peWest neEast. Kuti tizvinzwisise zvizere, tinofanira kuyeuka colonialism, imperialism, hondo inotonhora, "neoliberal" hegemony uye kusimuka kwe wannabe illiberal hegemons.
Kutaura nezve Russia neUkraine, chinhu chakakosha kuti tinzwisise nezve kurwa kunonyadzisa uku pakati pesimba remampiriyamu echinyakare uye hutongi hwechinyakare hutongi hwechiuto hune hunhu hwezvematongerwo enyika nevechiuto: vese vane kunyoresa uye hurongwa hwekurerwa kwechiuto pachinzvimbo chedzidzo yevagari. Ndosaka varwi vehondo kumativi ose vachidana vaNazi. Mupfungwa, vachiri kurarama munyika yeUSSR ye “Great Patriotic War” kana “Ukrainian liberation movement” uye vanotenda kuti vanhu vanofanira kubatana vachitenderedza mukuru wavo mukuru kuti aparadze muvengi wavo aripo, ava vaHitler-ites kana vasina-vari nani Stalinists, pachinzvimbo che izvo zvinoshamisa kuona muvakidzani vanhu.
Pane here zvimwewo mugakava iri iro veruzhinji vekuMadokero vasina kana ruzivo rwakanyanya?
YS: Hongu, zvirokwazvo. Ukrainian diaspora muAmerica yakawedzera zvakanyanya mushure mehondo mbiri dzenyika. US nedzimwe njere dzekuMadokero munguva yehondo inotonhora vakatsvaga vamiririri mudiaspora iyi kuti vashandise manzwiro erudzi rwekukurudzira kupatsanurwa muUSSR, uye mamwe madzinza ekuUkraine akapfuma kana kuita mabasa muUS neCanada zvematongerwo enyika nemauto, nenzira iyoyo ine simba rekuUkraine rekugara rakabuda nezvisungo. kuUkraine uye vanopindira vavariro. Apo USSR yakawa uye Ukraine yakawana rusununguko, maWestern diaspora akashanda nesimba mukuvaka nyika.
Pane zviitiko zvinopesana nehondo muRussia uye kana zvakadaro, zvinotaridzika sei?
OB: Zviito zvokurwisana nehondo zvakaitwa muSt. Petersburg, Moscow, uye makumi emaguta makuru eRussia. Zviuru zvakawanda zvevanhu zvakangopinda mumigwagwa kuti zviratidze kusabvumirana kwavo. Chikamu chinonyanya kufarirwa chevatori vechikamu vechidiki. Vanopfuura 7,500 vadzidzi, vashandi uye vakapedza kudzidza kuRussia yekare Lomonosov Moscow University vakasaina chikumbiro pamusoro pehondo. Vadzidzi vanoda kuzviona sechikamu chenyika yakasununguka yedemocracy, yavangatorerwa nekuda kwezvirongwa zvemutungamiri wenyika. Zviremera zvinoti Russia ine zviwanikwa zvinodiwa zvehupenyu uye zvombo zveatomu zvinovadzivirira, kunyangwe mumamiriro ekuparadzana, kubva kune dzimwe nyika. Vanopfuura miriyoni 1 220 zviuru zveRussia vakasaina chikumbiro "NO KUTI HONDO". Single pickets "KUPENYANA NENUCLEAR WEAPONS" uye "KUPENYANA NEROPA HONDO" inoitwa zuva nezuva muSt. Petersburg nemamwe maguta eRussia. Panguva imwecheteyo, vashandi veInstitute of Atomic Energy vakatumidzwa zita reKurchatov muMoscow "vakatsigira zvizere sarudzo yeMutungamiriri weRussian Federation yekuita basa rinokosha remauto" munharaunda yeUkraine. Uye uyu hausi iwo chete muenzaniso wekutsigira kwehasha. Ini nevandinoshanda navo musangano rezvakatipoteredza nerunyararo tine chokwadi chekuti ramangwana redu raputswa muRussia neUkraine.
Rugare neRussia inyaya muUkraine izvozvi?
YS: Hongu, iyi inyaya isina kupokana. Mutungamiri Zelenskyy akasarudzwa muna 2019 nekuda kwezvipikirwa zvake zvekumisa hondo uye kutaurirana runyararo, asi akatyora zvivimbiso izvi ndokutanga kudzvanyirira vezvenhau veRussia uye vanopikisa muUkraine, vachikurudzira vanhu vese kuti varwe neRussia. Izvi zvakapindirana neNATO yakawedzera rubatsiro rwemauto uye zviboorero zvenyukireya. Putin akatanga zvake zvibooresa zvenyukireya ndokukumbira Madokero vimbiso dzekuchengetedza, kutanga pane zvese zvisina kurongeka kweUkraine. Panzvimbo yekupa zvivimbiso zvakadaro, nyika dzekuMadokero dzakatsigira kushanda kwemauto eUkraine muDonbass uko kutyorwa kwekumisa mhirizhonga kwakawedzera uye mumazuva apfuura kurwisa kweRussia vanhu vakaurayiwa uye vakakuvadzwa anenge mazuva ese kumativi ese, pane inodzorwa nehurumende uye isiri-inodzorwa nehurumende. nzvimbo.
Kukura kwakadii kupokana nerunyararo nezviito zvisina mhirizhonga munyika yako?
OB: MuRussia, ese akazvimirira enhau edemocracy akavharwa uye akarega kushanda. Propaganda yehondo iri kuitwa pamatanho ese eterevhizheni yenyika. Facebook ne Instagram zvakavharwa. Hondo ichangotanga, mitemo mitsva yakatorwa inopesana nemanyepo uye "kupokana nekuzvidza mauto eRussia ari kuita basa rinokosha muUkraine." Fakes ipfungwa dzipi nedzipi dzinotaurwa pachena dzinopokana nezvinotaurwa nevezvenhau. Zvirango zvinopihwa kubva mufaindi hombe yemakumi ezviuru ezviuru zveRubles, kusvika kuhusungwa kusvika kumakore gumi nemashanu. Mutungamiri akazivisa kurwisana ne "vatengesi venyika" vanodzivisa kushandiswa kwezvirongwa zvake zveUkraine. Bazi reRuramisiro reRussian Federation rinoramba richipa chinzvimbo che "mumiriri wekunze" kumasangano ezvakatipoteredza uye ekodzero dzevanhu ari kushanda pamwe nevabatsiri vanobva kune dzimwe nyika. Kutya kudzvinyirirwa kuri kuita chinhu chakakosha chehupenyu muRussia.
Democracy inoratidzika sei muUkraine? Dzinofanana here?
YS: Musi waKukadzi 24, 2022 Putin akatanga hutsinye uye zvisiri pamutemo kurwisa kwakanangana, sezvaanotaura, pakubvisa uye kubvisa mauto kuUkraine. Nekuda kweizvozvo, zvese zviri zviviri Russia neUkraine zvinoita sedzinowedzera mauto uye zvakanyanya kufanana nemaNazi, uye hapana anoda kuzvichinja. Kutonga populist autocrats uye zvikwata zvavo munyika mbiri idzi purofiti kubva kuhondo, simba ravo rinosimba uye kune mikana yakawanda yekuzviwanira wega. Matsotsi ekuRussia anobatsirwa nekusarudzika pasi rose kweRussia sezvo zvichireva kuunganidzwa kwemauto uye zvese zviwanikwa zveveruzhinji zvava mumaoko avo. Kumadokero, mauto ekugadzira mauto akashatisa hurumende neveruzhinji, vatengesi verufu vakawana mari yakawanda kubva murubatsiro rwemauto kuenda kuUkraine: Thales (mutengesi weJavelin anokandwa kuUkraine), Raytheon (mutengesi weStinger makombora) uye Lockheed Martin (kugovera jets. ) vakawana kuwedzera kukuru kwepurofiti uye kukosha kwemusika wemasheya. Uye ivo vanoda kuwana purofiti yakawanda kubva mukuuraya nekuparadza.
Unotarisirei kubva kumapato erunyararo munyika nevanhu vese vanoda runyararo?
OB: Izvo zvinodikanwa kuti vatori vechikamu ve "Movement for Peace" vabatane nevezvakatipoteredza, vanorwira kodzero dzevanhu, anti-war, anti-nuclear nemamwe masangano anoda rugare. Kusawirirana kunofanirwa kugadziriswa kuburikidza nekutaurirana, kwete hondo. RUGARE rwakatinakira tose!
Chii chingaitwa nemunhu wepacifist kuti ave nerunyararo kana nyika yake yarwiswa?
YS: Zvakanaka, kutanga pane zvose pacifist inofanira kuramba iri pacifist, ramba uchipindura chisimba nemafungiro asina mhirizhonga uye zviito. Iwe unofanirwa kushandisa kuedza kwese kutsvaga nekutsigira mhinduro dzine runyararo, kuramba kukwira, kuve nehanya nekuchengetedzeka kwevamwe uye iwe pachako. Vanodiwa shamwari, ndinokutendai nekutarisira nezvemamiriro ezvinhu muUkraine. Ngativakei pamwechete nyika irinani isina mauto nemiganhu yerunyararo nerufaro rwevanhu vese.
Kubvunzurudza kwakaitwa naReiner Braun (nenzira dzemagetsi).
